WTF The Nike Fuelband - or Why the Mayans Should Have Been Right

CletusJones said:
Blatant stab in the dark.

Tell me what you know about human behavior. I like to learn. I have a job that pays me to learn.
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A lot of it is basically applied uses of Operant Conditioning, specialized around children roughly 3-10. Mostly it boils down to me trying not to laugh or shake my head at parents that end up reinforcing behaviors in their kids that the parents obviously hate.

Example: kid in supermarket screaming, parent stops every five minutes to tell them to stop. The screaming is an attention seeking behavior, the parent stopping to tell the kid to hush is the attention that the kid wants. The kid has learned that if it screams it gets the attention it wants.
There are two basic ways to get the kid to shut up. Positive reinforcement would be ignoring the kid or teaching it a less annoying way of getting your attention (such as tugging on your sleeve or pants leg).
Negative reinforcement is always harder for me to explain. Textbook definition of it goes along the lines of: removing averse stimulus as a behavioral modifier. It is taking away an outcome that the subject sees as negative or limiting. @Mortlach can correct me if I get too wrong on this, but negative reinforcement in this situation would be something like "stop screaming or I will not buy your favorite cereal"

In behavioral circles, neither of these are punishments, and a fair number of studies show that punishments usually cause more harm than good.
Despite this, most Behavioral Analysts will still admit that they would like to spank a child who is misbehaving.



Make any sense?
 
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Mr. Asa said:
Example: kid in supermarket screaming, parent stops every five minutes to tell them to stop. The screaming is an attention seeking behavior, the parent stopping to tell the kid to hush is the attention that the kid wants. The kid has learned that if it screams it gets the attention it wants.
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In this scenario you really only have to punch the kid hard in the face once. The brain is an amazing thing, and when it regains consciousness those defective synapses will feature warning signs that prevent them from firing in that way again. It's like a window into evolutionary biology.
 
Mr. Asa said:
A lot of it is basically applied uses of Operant Conditioning, specialized around children roughly 3-10. Mostly it boils down to me trying not to laugh or shake my head at parents that end up reinforcing behaviors in their kids that the parents obviously hate.

Example: kid in supermarket screaming, parent stops every five minutes to tell them to stop. The screaming is an attention seeking behavior, the parent stopping to tell the kid to hush is the attention that the kid wants. The kid has learned that if it screams it gets the attention it wants.
There are two basic ways to get the kid to shut up. Positive reinforcement would be ignoring the kid or teaching it a less annoying way of getting your attention (such as tugging on your sleeve or pants leg).
Negative reinforcement is always harder for me to explain. Textbook definition of it goes along the lines of: removing averse stimulus as a behavioral modifier. It is taking away an outcome that the subject sees as negative or limiting. @Mortlach can correct me if I get too wrong on this, but negative reinforcement in this situation would be something like "stop screaming or I will not buy your favorite cereal"

In behavioral circles, neither of these are punishments, and a fair number of studies show that punishments usually cause more harm than good.
Despite this, most Behavioral Analysts will still admit that they would like to spank a child who is misbehaving.



Make any sense?
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Makes sense. I've read a few books on child raising.

I think most normal adults want to spank misbehaving children.

We took a middle of the road approach and do a combination of positive/negative reinforcements. We mostly encouraged them to try new things and showed them how to be polite and respectful.
 
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Mr. Asa said:
A lot of it is basically applied uses of Operant Conditioning, specialized around children roughly 3-10. Mostly it boils down to me trying not to laugh or shake my head at parents that end up reinforcing behaviors in their kids that the parents obviously hate.

Example: kid in supermarket screaming, parent stops every five minutes to tell them to stop. The screaming is an attention seeking behavior, the parent stopping to tell the kid to hush is the attention that the kid wants. The kid has learned that if it screams it gets the attention it wants.
There are two basic ways to get the kid to shut up. Positive reinforcement would be ignoring the kid or teaching it a less annoying way of getting your attention (such as tugging on your sleeve or pants leg).
Negative reinforcement is always harder for me to explain. Textbook definition of it goes along the lines of: removing averse stimulus as a behavioral modifier. It is taking away an outcome that the subject sees as negative or limiting. @Mortlach can correct me if I get too wrong on this, but negative reinforcement in this situation would be something like "stop screaming or I will not buy your favorite cereal"

In behavioral circles, neither of these are punishments, and a fair number of studies show that punishments usually cause more harm than good.
Despite this, most Behavioral Analysts will still admit that they would like to spank a child who is misbehaving.



Make any sense?
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ignoring is still negative reinforcement although it is by far the most mild/passive of the group.... you are still withholding that which the person would have otherwise

the kid was getting a normal amount of attention and that for the time he is screaming, it is withheld

positive is giving the kid a treat after he stops, just saying you will can be part of the conditioning but the act is needed not just the promise or like you said, teaching the kid a new technique either with a treat or at the very least in a positive tone of voice so there is comfort associated
 
Mortlach said:
ignoring is still negative reinforcement although it is by far the most mild/passive of the group.... you are still withholding that which the person would have otherwise

the kid was getting a normal amount of attention and that for the time he is screaming, it is withheld

positive is giving the kid a treat after he stops, just saying you will can be part of the conditioning but the act is needed not just the promise or like you said, teaching the kid a new technique either with a treat or at the very least in a positive tone of voice so there is comfort associated
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I couldn't remember what ignoring was, it is one of my gf's favorite methods for public settings.

And with treats you have to stay on top of it because the kid can start yelling just to get a treat, as the behavior plan continues you move from a 1:1 stop yelling:treat to 5:1, 10:1, and so on.
If you get too much of a gap the behavior modifier stops working and you may have to start over. IIRC this is called extinction.
 
CletusJones said:
Makes sense. I've read a few books on child raising.

I think most normal adults want to spank misbehaving children.

We took a middle of the road approach and do a combination of positive/negative reinforcements. We mostly encouraged them to try new things and showed them how to be polite and respectful.
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One of modern societies biggest problems is it's no longer social acceptable to properily punish a child in public. Parents are afraid to spank their kids so they trying make deals and reason with them. The kids grow up thinking no matter how bad they misbehave they will always have a chance to just talk their way out of a bad situation. That don't realize some lines if you cross them people and life will beat the shit of you for doing.


Like Charlie Murphy would say they are "habitual line-steppers"
 
b_sinning said:
One of modern societies biggest problems is it's no longer social acceptable to properily punish a child in public. Parents are afraid to spank their kids so they trying make deals and reason with them. The kids grow up thinking no matter how bad they misbehave they will always have a chance to just talk their way out of a bad situation. That don't realize some lines if you cross them people and life will beat the shit of you for doing.


Like Charlie Murphy would say they are "habitual line-steppers"
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This is not necessarily a correct statement.
 
b_sinning said:
One of modern societies biggest problems is it's no longer social acceptable to properily punish a child in public. Parents are afraid to spank their kids so they trying make deals and reason with them. The kids grow up thinking no matter how bad they misbehave they will always have a chance to just talk their way out of a bad situation. That don't realize some lines if you cross them people and life will beat the shit of you for doing.


Like Charlie Murphy would say they are "habitual line-steppers"
Click to expand...
My wife has relatives in Kansas. It is apparently illegal to strike your child in public. Smack on the hand = arrest.

We don't bargain with our kids, if they get crazy we leave immediately. I've gotten meals boxed to go and have left shopping carts with several of items in them, just to remove a misbehaving child from public. People look at you weird when you walk out with a screaming child over your shoulder, but nobody has ever questioned me.
 
CletusJones said:
My wife has relatives in Kansas. It is apparently illegal to strike your child in public. Smack on the hand = arrest.

We don't bargain with our kids, if they get crazy we leave immediately. I've gotten meals boxed to go and have left shopping carts with several of items in them, just to remove a misbehaving child from public. People look at you weird when you walk out with a screaming child over your shoulder, but nobody has ever questioned me.
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But when I was a kid you punished the kid on the spot and other parents showed their kid you smacking your kid and let them know that could be you if you misbehaved too. Other parents use to respect the parents that punished the kid as long as they didn't cross the line into abusing the kid. Then nosy people without kids stuck their noses in and assumed all physical punishment of your kid was abuse and tv reinforced that mentality. So now if you do physically punish your kid you remove the kid from public view to do it. The delay in punishment sometimes makes the kid misunderstand the reason for the punishment. A delayed cause and effect.


Some kids understand cause and effect so they don't need to be burned to learn not to touch hot stuff and some kids are heathen morons and stick their hand into a fire to learn they will get burned.
 
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b_sinning said:
But when I was a kid you punished the kid on the spot and other parents showed their kid you smacking your kid and let them know that could be you if you misbehaved too. Other parents use to respect the parents that punished the kid as long as they didn't cross the line into abusing the kid. Then nosy people without kids stuck their noses in and assumed all physical punishment of your kid was abuse and tv reinforced that mentality. So now if you do physically punish your kid you remove the kid from public view to do it. The delay in punishment sometimes makes the kid misunderstand the reason for the punishment. A delayed cause and effect.
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this
 
b_sinning said:
But when I was a kid you punished the kid on the spot and other parents showed their kid you smacking your kid and let them know that could be you if you misbehaved too. Other parents use to respect the parents that punished the kid as long as they didn't cross the line into abusing the kid. Then nosy people without kids stuck their noses in and assumed all physical punishment of your kid was abuse and tv reinforced that mentality. So now if you do physically punish your kid you remove the kid from public view to do it. The delay in punishment sometimes makes the kid misunderstand the reason for the punishment. A delayed cause and effect.
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Oversimplified rebuttal:
Punishment alone is scientifically shown to have a negative effect on behavior.
 
Mr. Asa said:
Oversimplified rebuttal:
Punishment alone is scientifically shown to have a negative effect on behavior.
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Of course pure punishment doesn't teach. You have to temper it with love, rewards, and showing them fully how to do something and then working with them until they know how to do it themsleves.
 
b_sinning said:
One of modern societies biggest problems is it's no longer social acceptable to properily punish a child in public. Parents are afraid to spank their kids so they trying make deals and reason with them. The kids grow up thinking no matter how bad they misbehave they will always have a chance to just talk their way out of a bad situation. That don't realize some lines if you cross them people and life will beat the shit of you for doing.


Like Charlie Murphy would say they are "habitual line-steppers"
Click to expand...

I don't see this as a problem in today's society myself. I am not a fan of physical punishment especially in public (the reason in public is worse is that it combines pain and embarrassment the combination can actually be traumatic for a kid and I do not use that word lightly). Physical punishment like spanking or a mild smack upside the head imo is not abuse, I'm just not a fan...anything more than that is abusive. Problem with abuse in a nutshell, is that they are learning not to do something because they fear you or the repercussions; they are not learning the logic behind it only not to do it or else...not only do these lessons tend to be temporary but you are also teaching the kid that this is a proper way of conveying one's point which is not good when they reach teenage and adult years

CletusJones said:
My wife has relatives in Kansas. It is apparently illegal to strike your child in public. Smack on the hand = arrest.

We don't bargain with our kids, if they get crazy we leave immediately. I've gotten meals boxed to go and have left shopping carts with several of items in them, just to remove a misbehaving child from public. People look at you weird when you walk out with a screaming child over your shoulder, but nobody has ever questioned me.
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I will often simply remove them from the situation take them to a place where they can scream all they want without me needing to passify them and thus giving in
 
I would love to post a long and serious piece about how best to raise children but I think it's obvious to all of you that I don't know the first thing about it.
 
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