Ontopic Mormons and homophobia

I've only been involved in one Mormon church here so can't comment more widely, but in the UK I would say the membership are less hard line about everything than in Utah. I don't remember homosexuality being discussed apart from in the child indocrination classes. Despite having been Director of Sunday School I can't claim to be expert in church belief. I was just a bluffer. People never got ostracized regardless.
 
I skipped over most of the thread but I wanted to point out that I've also seen that level of close-mindedness from a group of people that tend to ostracize those with differing political and social opinions. Trying to change the minds of bigots is difficult, especially when they insist that it's all a choice and especially when those certain groups of people are all on the anti-intellectualism bandwagon that Fox News loves to pander its base with.
 
The courts can, though, and most likely will if they deem his homosexuality a threat to the wellbeing of the child.

The Utah Supreme Court has opined on this issue already, and recognizes the importance of parenting in a child's life, regardless of sexuality of the parent. They also recognize the trial court's rights to govern visitation orders, and that many cases in other jurisdictions have placed some kind of restriction upon gay parents. He will likely get custody, with conditions.


Excerpt from Kallas v. Kallas, 614 P.2d 641 (1980 Utah)

"For instance, in In re Jane B., 85 Misc. 2d 515, 380 N.Y.S.2d 848 (1976), the court banned overnight visits and prohibited the mother from taking the children to the mother's residence while the lesbian lover or other homosexuals were present. The court also forbade the mother to involve the child in any homosexual activities or publicity.

Similarly, the court in In re J.S. & C., 129 N.J. Super. 486, 324 A.2d 90 (1974), concluded that unrestricted visitation would not be in the best interest of the children and prohibited a homosexual father from cohabiting or sleeping with any individual other than a lawful spouse when the children were present. The court also prohibited the father from taking the children to homosexual gatherings or into the presence of his lover.

In DiStefano v. DiStefano, 60 A.D.2d 976, 401 N.Y.S.2d 636 (1978), visitation rights were conditioned upon the exclusion of the mother's lesbian lover from the children's presence.

A child custody proceeding is equitable in nature and must be based primarily and foremost on the welfare and interest of the minor children. Hyde v. Hyde, 22 Utah 2d 429, 454 P.2d 884 (1969). A court must, in a custody dispute, give the highest priority to the welfare of the children over the desires of either parent. Walton v. Coffman, 110 Utah 1, 169 P.2d 97 (1946). The same general principles apply in determining visitation rights. Although a parent's sexuality in and of itself is not alone a sufficient basis upon which to deny completely a parent's fundamental right, the manifestation of one's sexuality and resulting behavior patterns are relevant to custody and to the nature and scope of visitation rights. In re J.S. & C., supra."
 
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Don't get me wrong, the trial courts still have the right to do what they want, and it would have to be challenged. But at least the Utah Supreme Court has commented on the issue to some extent, which is better than nothing.
 
Ghost or kiwi, if this upsets you so much, have you thought about approaching your minister/priest/high officer about the issue? Let him or her know your observations, noting there seems to be a slight biased to the direction of hatred by pointing to a group of people for blaming something? I would be surprised and saddened if even approaching a teacher such as a preacher would be met with resistance or have them blab to others about your concerns.

That wouldn't go over well. At best it would just be passively acknowledged and then immediately ignored, at worst they'd send me to "church court" (this is a general statement, of course, it's not aimed at any one person in the church by any means).

Ghost, how old is this friend of yours that was married? 20's? 30's? older?

If he was in his 20's, there is a strong chance of a successful recovery in his self-worth. The older you are coming out, the harder it is to realize yourself and to enjoy your life truthfully and without pressure.

He's in his 20s, his 3 or 4 years younger than I am.

He has a lot going against him as far generating self-worth and being ok with who he is. His family is very staunch Mormon, most of his friends are Mormon, he lives in Utah, the list goes on.
 
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I can email anyone who wants it a PDF of the 39-page 2009 Georgetown University Journal of Gender and the Law "10th Annual Review of Gender and Sexuality Law: Family Law Chapter: Child Custody, Visitation, & Termination of Parental Rights"

Very good for legal research purposes.
 
I get a day off of work so I don't post as much as normal and we get an quality discussion. WTF? Anyway. Religion is rules for the stupid people. You can talk to god at anytime and any place. If going into a boring building and singing bad songs makes you feel better about yourself then good for you. Have fun. God has good ears and accepts all incoming calls so why do I need to waste my time sitting with those idiots? If you really think that a man in italy with a funny hat has God's unlisted cell number and can talk to your God better than you can then I feel sorry for you.



If your gay and want to love another good person of the same sex then go right ahead. As long as it's not physically hurting someone else do whatever you want behind closed doors. Love is love and sometimes it goes against the grain or breaks the rules so just accept it and mind your own business.
 
I get a day off of work so I don't post as much as normal and we get an quality discussion. WTF? Anyway. Religion is rules for the stupid people. You can talk to god at anytime and any place. If going into a boring building and singing bad songs makes you feel better about yourself then good for you. Have fun. God has good ears and accepts all incoming calls so why do I need to waste my time sitting with those idiots? If you really think that a man in italy with a funny hat has God's unlisted cell number and can talk to your God better than you can then I feel sorry for you.



If your gay and want to love another good person of the same sex then go right ahead. As long as it's not physically hurting someone else do whatever you want behind closed doors. Love is love and sometimes it goes against the grain or breaks the rules so just accept it and mind your own business.

Truth.
 
I get your point but this was my only disagreement. This varies greatly depending on the church you go to (not the denomination, but the specific parish)

Some of the most beautiful art and architecture in the world has been in churches. I think religion is pretty much a hobby if you think about it. You can collect beanie babies or stand to sing hymns, if it makes you happy without harming someone else then go for it. Just don't try to get me to sing songs about your beanie babies.
 
I get a day off of work so I don't post as much as normal and we get an quality discussion. WTF? Anyway. Religion is rules for the stupid people. You can talk to god at anytime and any place. If going into a boring building and singing bad songs makes you feel better about yourself then good for you. Have fun. God has good ears and accepts all incoming calls so why do I need to waste my time sitting with those idiots? If you really think that a man in italy with a funny hat has God's unlisted cell number and can talk to your God better than you can then I feel sorry for you.



If your gay and want to love another good person of the same sex then go right ahead. As long as it's not physically hurting someone else do whatever you want behind closed doors. Love is love and sometimes it goes against the grain or breaks the rules so just accept it and mind your own business.

But the pagentry and ritual are the only things I like about religion :lol: I love the altar cloths, the ritual of sacraments, the hymns, the construction of the buildings, the organization of the services, the structure of the literature based on calendar events, when you say and certain phrase, etc. That's the fun part to me. Of course that's all the superficial showpiece stuff and I am vapid so that might explain things.
 
But the pagentry and ritual are the only things I like about religion :lol: I love the altar cloths, the ritual of sacraments, the hymns, the construction of the buildings, the organization of the services, the structure of the literature based on calendar events, when you say and certain phrase, etc. That's the fun part to me. Of course that's all the superficial showpiece stuff and I am vapid so that might explain things.

I've felt closer to god standing outside in a wide open space in a thunderstorm than I have in a musty old church. But if that is what makes you happy then do it.
 
But the pagentry and ritual are the only things I like about religion :lol: I love the altar cloths, the ritual of sacraments, the hymns, the construction of the buildings, the organization of the services, the structure of the literature based on calendar events, when you say and certain phrase, etc. That's the fun part to me. Of course that's all the superficial showpiece stuff and I am vapid so that might explain things.

Don't forget the altar boys. ;)
 
The people make the church what it is.

That said, Canterbury Cathedral "felt" vastly more spiritual than Westminster Abbey for instance.

I totally believe that the power of belief stays with some places and they feel more spiritual. I liked Neil Gaiman's take on God's in American Gods. Belief and faith is what powered the gods and it could stick to certain places of power.
 
Don't forget the altar boys. ;)

I don't care for them. For one, they are usually too busy in the back behind the altar to be bothered. For another, they always have that look of scared and surprise like at any moment they will be overpowered to do something they don't want to do. And finally, they are usually too young.
 
You wouldn't make it through Seminary training.

Semenary, perhaps.

Your undying devotion to a powerful man that will lead you to everlasting paradise? That sounds like a dream to me.

A whole wardrobe of flashy kit? Fabulous.

Thousands of dollars to help promote your causes? Excellent.

Actually helping people? Sensational.

Unlike most men, I got the terribly inconvenient secondary sex characteristics of testosterone such as thin hair and copious amounts of body hair without the primary sex characteristics of a sex drive. That whole vow of celibacy wouldn't be TOO hard for me to follow.