reverendsaintjay said:
Ooooooh, someone that likes to rebut point by point. I find myself liking you more and more.
Meh, it was a slow morning. I won't be so long on this post, unfortunately. And trust me, I'm not worth liking.
reverendsaintjay said:
Based on your arguments so far, how can you explain S&M fetishists? How do people derive happiness from extremely negative external stimulus like Pain, deprivation, humiliation? If happiness is a side effect of personal reflections on external stimuli, how can you say you have no control over it? What happens when there is no stimulus strong enough for us to interpret it as happiness, are we forever doomed to search for that next big fix? Are we never able to modify or adjust our perceptions of the events in our life to find happiness?
I didn't say you have no control over it. Simply that you don't have complete control over it. I will gladly go along with the idea that people cause themselves to be stuck in misery. Why else would people get so worked up over traffic.
A similar argument I had with a friend once was how pissed off traffic had made him. I pointed out that it wasn't traffic that had pissed him off, but his own emotions. He disagreed pointing out all the ways trafficed had pissed him off. I simply had to point out that I was not pissed, and I had gone through the same traffic. (In fact, I believe I may have been the one driving.)
reverendsaintjay said:
Again, this comes from my being too strong in pointing out the influence of external things. To deny that there is external influence on your happiness is a weak argument, is what I was really getting at. To claim that happiness is solely outside of us would be an even weaker argument, which is what you seem to have thought I was doing. I wasn't.
reverendsaintjay said:
I can see how you would think that drugs are an ultimate solution, based on your views of happiness so far. But let me ask you this, what are these drugs other than chemical simulations of the exact stimuli that you are basing happiness on right now? The endorphins released during orgasm, the adrenaline released during competition and victory? The human organism is firmly rooted in animal behavior, and we are rewarded for completing goals that forward our survival. Look at our pleasure centers and you'll see what evolution has done to us. Sex feels good because it propogates the species. Pooping feels good because if we didn't do it we'd die. Victory feels good because it secures our place at the head of the pack, giving us breeding and feeding opportunities. The problem is that as an organism we have evolved beyond reacting to stimuli, positive or negative. With the ability to reason comes the ability to shape the stimuli we receive every day into whatever form we choose, happiness or misery.
Have we really evolved past that? A lot of us are fortunate enough in that we think (and can even act like) we have, but I'm not so sure about the reality of the statement.
reverendsaintjay said:
My friends interest me far less than this argument does.... I can discuss them some more if you want, but that really would be a tanget to the fun stuff happening in here. Basically, the main worrying I was actually doing about them was about the girl taking a liking to me. Reflecting on that some more, I don't think she has particularly done so, but I think she does want my help getting out and being social to meet people. In particular, people to date.
reverendsaintjay said:
There are some pretty ambitious assumptions here, I don't take offense to them, you simply don't know me well enough to see how wrong those statements are.
See... those were supposed to be sarcastic. I sometimes forget that doesn't come through online.
reverendsaintjay said:
I will point out one thing wrong in this quoted block. You will never, ever be able to help someone else be happy. You can provide external stimulus that triggers their pleasure centers. You can make their lives easier, better, more rewarding. You can do all of those things but you will never be able to make someone understand that they have the power to make themselves happy.
But that is exactly what I was getting at. You can not make them be happy (without the use of very lethal drugs that target the brain specifically), but you can definitely deny people happiness by certain stimulations. By the same token, you can give people the opportunity for happiness, as well.
reverendsaintjay said:
My proof? This thread. If I were able to make you understand that you will only ever be as happy as you choose to be you wouldn't still be arguing with me...
Actually... that would be pretty poor proof. I'm in this thread because it pleases me to have fun and involved conversations with people. I'm arguing for the joy of arguing here.
Also, I should point this out. I have found that it is easiest for me to learn about certain viewpoints by challenging them. So, when I see a view that is similar to my own online, I will often attack it. By learning how other people defend it and why, I can often come to a better understanding of my own reasons for doing so.
All of this is to say, please don't get offended, as it is not intended. Do, however, defend your position as well as you can. Please.