Hawt 2nd Amendment Incorporated by the Supreme Court

kiwi said:
As previous people have stated, guns aren't just to defend our homes and lives from other people but from the government. What happens if the government takes all our weapons away, then decides they want to throw out the current system and change it as they please. Nothing, cause we have no means to do anything about it. We already had to overthrow the government once and set up a new one to get this country to where we want it, and the chance of that needing to happen again seems likely, so we'll need our guns.
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Do you seriously fear the government that much...?
 
Phoenix said:
Do you seriously fear the government that much...?
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Yes. They are trying their hardest to micro manage and take away all rights of the American people, and I'm not okay with just sitting around and letting it happen. That's not the principles this country was based on.
 
Phoenix said:
I haven't even looked at the stats but that's a dumb statement for 2 reasons.

1). What do you meant by "crime" ? I assume since we're talking about gun ownership that you mean serious crimes i.e. murder/rape/GBH and that somehow you think more people owning guns make these less likely? Because if crime overall or petty crime is falling, then that's really irrelevant.

2). US crime was probably at a much higher level to begin with, so to be honest I don't think it's impressive that it falls from say 1000 to 900 murders a year and the UK and Australia rise from 4 to 5. I'm making figures up here but you get my point.

Anyway I know that the US is a much more violent society than the UK, and also that a ban on handguns has made the UK a much safer society. Unfortunately given that some people may still own guns for recreational/hunting use here and keep these in their houses, means that events like the recent Cumbria massacre can still occur.

As you can tell I'm very anti-the right to bear arms, as this is a forum filled with Yanks I'm sure this will be deeply unpopular but whatevs. Seems so illogical to me that allowing everyone to own a deadly weapon is gonna make violent crime fall...
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Of course I mean violent crime.

If you look at the cities in the US with major crime problems (NYC, LA, Chicago, DC, Detroit) you'll notice something they all have had in common. A gun ban.

I live 20 miles from DC, which not even 2 years ago was one of the worst cities in the US for violent crime. It got so bad that the DC Mayor had to declare a state of emergency due to the 2 or 3 murders a night that were happening. Well 20 miles west where I live, crime is very low. Yeah there are nice neighbourhoods around here, but there is also a large population of illegal immigrants, and Latino gangs (MS-13, South Side Locos). You would expect the crime to have spewed out of the city and into the surrounding areas like it is happen on the east side of DC into Maryland, but it isn't. The reason is because a high percentage of people in my area gun owners. A high enough percentage that people will never really know if the person who just walked past them has a guy or not. Maryland has gun ownership laws also, yet they more controlled than Virginia.

Some people like to point to the Virginia Tech Massacre as proof that states with relaxed gun laws don't work. Well that example does more to prove my point. Virginia Tech is a campus that do not allow the possession of firearms. A gun ban. Just like DC.

Another thing to look at is the steady rise in violent crime in Australia ever since they banned guns.


I too used to be completely anti-gun. It wasn't until I really looked into the situation with an open mind that I realized that gun bans do not work.
 
Casper said:
Like I said. Paranoid and armed since 1620.

It's a comfort blanket, yo. Your small arsenal probably isn't worth dick against the U.S. military or even rookie PD officers.
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The US military can't even combat third world starving poor arabs in Afghanistan. How would they combat 100+ million armed Americans? Along with the amount of desertions from the military. The government would have to completely destroy this country to win that battle.
 
kiwi said:
Yes. They are trying their hardest to micro manage and take away all rights of the American people, and I'm not okay with just sitting around and letting it happen. That's not the principles this country was based on.
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It was founded by violent uprisings, but I don't think it was meant to continue with them.
 
Ol' Diamondback Sturgeon said:
The US military can't even combat third world starving poor arabs in Afghanistan. How would they combat 100+ million armed Americans? Along with the amount of desertions from the military. The government would have to completely destroy this country to win that battle.
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We don't have the environment to do guerilla tactics effectively
 
it's pretty clear in history that highly motivated defending guerrillas win quite often. if they do lose, the other side has won a Pyrrhic victory
 
Ol' Diamondback Sturgeon said:
I too used to be completely anti-gun. It wasn't until I really looked into the situation with an open mind that I realized that gun bans do not work.
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What do you mean by "do not work" ? You do realise the UK has a ban on handguns and a much lower violent crime rate than the US. Of course if you mean they don't completely eliminate all violent crime, then that's an obvious point. One-off nutjobs like the V-Tech guy and the Cumbria serial killer will pop up once every number of years no matter what the state of the gun laws is (but even then as I mentioned before, if he hadn't had a gun license for hunting then he wouldn't have been able to kill all those people). However overall, I think a society is best served by having as few firearms in private hands as possible. The US violent crime rate is still a lot higher than that in most other Western societies.
 
shortguyrage said:
Look at the Iraqi insurgence....
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That was my first point. If these Arabs over there in the countries we are fighting are giving the US military a run for it's money, then the US military is in for a huge fucking surprise if it think it could battle it's own people and win.
 
kiwi said:
Yes. They are trying their hardest to micro manage and take away all rights of the American people, and I'm not okay with just sitting around and letting it happen. That's not the principles this country was based on.
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Could you please clarify on this? (Forgive me for being an ignorant Brit)

What rights are they taking away? And why do you think it's necessary to counter these infringement of rights with physical violence i.e. owning a gun?
 
ChikkenNoodul said:
Violent crime has nothing to do with the availability of guns, inanimate objects do not create violence out of thin air.

Idiots do.
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Er.....making guns available for everyone to own means that some of the people obtaining them will therefore be idiots, and perpetrate violent crime. Banning them on the other hand would mean that those same idiots would be unable to commit those same crimes.
 
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