Being in politics is fun!

ChikkenNoodul said:
So, you wouldn't complain for one second if the US had "invaded" Darfur and killed people?

Wouldn't there not be a "Darfur Death Toll" counter, with people blaming the US?
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Had they gone into Dafur to stop the massacre, then I could understand and tolerate casualties.

I completely understand casualties of war. Yet when a war is started for bullshit reasons, the casualties in that kind of war are not justified.


No matter how you spin it, America fucked up.
 
America knows it fucked up. Now. If you go back and look at the events leading up to the invasion, however, America had no idea what it was getting into. That's the important part. Our representatives had so little information at the time it was staggering. They essentially had the words of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, the infamous "it's a slam dunk case" comment by George Tenet regarding WMDs, and the Feith Gestapo. Congress didn't even know that Bush was spending Afghanistan money to upgrade Iraq staging points such as bases and airfields.

Cheney was pushing for an invasion well before 9/11 for fuck's sake. It was at the top of his post-election agenda. He was the greatest single force compelling Bush to act.

Even Powell, who harbored great doubts about such a conflict, was eventually convinced by the administration that it should be undertaken. He called Iraq "the Pottery Barn" because, as he told Bush, "if you break it, you own it."

Our good faith in our leadership bit us in the ass, but I'm not losing any sleep over it. It's not like we still deny we did anything wrong.
 
Sarcasmo said:
America knows it fucked up. Now. If you go back and look at the events leading up to the invasion, however, America had no idea what it was getting into. That's the important part. Our representatives had so little information at the time it was staggering. They essentially had the words of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, the infamous "it's a slam dunk case" comment by George Tenet regarding WMDs, and the Feith Gestapo. Congress didn't even know that Bush was spending Afghanistan money to upgrade Iraq staging points such as bases and airfields.

Cheney was pushing for an invasion well before 9/11 for fuck's sake. It was at the top of his post-election agenda. He was the greatest single force compelling Bush to act.

Even Powell, who harbored great doubts about such a conflict, was eventually convinced by the administration that it should be undertaken. He called Iraq "the Pottery Barn" because, as he told Bush, "if you break it, you own it."

Our good faith in our leadership bit us in the ass, but I'm not losing any sleep over it. It's not like we still deny we did anything wrong.
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But again what are we STILL doing there? The gov has acknowledged it is inappropriate for us to still be there. Why can't we just put our tail between our legs, load up the planes and leave today?
 
dbzeag said:
But again what are we STILL doing there? The gov has acknowledged it is inappropriate for us to still be there. Why can't we just put our tail between our legs, load up the planes and leave today?
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We are still there because the Iraqis want us there. And need us there. We are slowly rolling over power to their forces, prior to withdrawing completely, which they've given us a timeline for. In the meantime, however, we are their support troops.
 
Sarcasmo said:
We are still there because the Iraqis want us there. And need us there. We are slowly rolling over power to their forces, prior to withdrawing completely, which they've given us a timeline for. In the meantime, however, we are their support troops.
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shit yeah they want us there. we give them an obscene amount of money per capita that could be spent on vital issues in the US
 
Sarcasmo said:
America knows it fucked up. Now. If you go back and look at the events leading up to the invasion, however, America had no idea what it was getting into. That's the important part. Our representatives had so little information at the time it was staggering. They essentially had the words of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, the infamous "it's a slam dunk case" comment by George Tenet regarding WMDs, and the Feith Gestapo. Congress didn't even know that Bush was spending Afghanistan money to upgrade Iraq staging points such as bases and airfields.

Cheney was pushing for an invasion well before 9/11 for fuck's sake. It was at the top of his post-election agenda. He was the greatest single force compelling Bush to act.

Even Powell, who harbored great doubts about such a conflict, was eventually convinced by the administration that it should be undertaken. He called Iraq "the Pottery Barn" because, as he told Bush, "if you break it, you own it."

Our good faith in our leadership bit us in the ass, but I'm not losing any sleep over it. It's not like we still deny we did anything wrong.
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I saw the entire thing coming. At least to me, the entire Iraq invasion thing was bullshit from the start. It was easy to see the rhetoric starting to get ramped up as the afghan was wore down. Bush was seeing, with how easy we 'walked over the taliban' (at least apparently at the time) in afghanistan, that they wanted to get rid of some old business, as well as, and this is quoted and can be found, Bush Jr wanted to tag Saddam for his assassination attempt on Bush Sr. It was personal. It was, also, bullshit.

Granted, going in after Saddam did stop him from doing some pretty massive genocide against turkish refugee's to the north, and loyalistst to whatever muslim party wasn't his (i think he was Sunni, and they were taking out the bathists, iirc), but in the end, I think more people died as a result of the unrest of the invasion than would have been wiped out by saddam.

Is iraq better off without Saddam? I can't say. Lots of Iraq is still trashed from the war. The place hasn't been reconstructed. I don't know enough of iraq before the war to know what state it was in. So I can't say.

But I can say, from the beginning, it was easy to see them ramp up the rhetoric to prod the us populace into supporting an invasion. If you ever read 'Red Storm Rising', the first 5 chapters of that book and what Russia did almost mimic to a t what the US did to get us ready for Iraq.

How gullible we, as a country, are.
 
Amstel said:
link plz.
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http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2009/06/30/muted_response_to_iraq_troop_p.html

Obama's ordered troop withdrawal has stirred little public debate. In part that's because the Iraqis are as anxious for the United States to leave as many Americans are to see the end of the American commitment. Under Obama's plan, combat forces will be gone by the end of August 2010. The remainder of U.S. forces, perhaps as many as 50,000, will leave Iraq by the end of 2011 under an agreement with the Iraqi government.

Obama's approval ratings on Iraq are among the highest of any issue he is dealing with. The decision to withdraw, on whatever timetable, the sharp reduction in American casualties and the general war weariness after six years of involvement there have combined to create a political calm over the issue that so convulsed the country.
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Sarcasmo said:
We are still there because the Iraqis want us there. And need us there. We are slowly rolling over power to their forces, prior to withdrawing completely, which they've given us a timeline for. In the meantime, however, we are their support troops.
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http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2009/06/30/muted_response_to_iraq_troop_p.html

In part that's because the Iraqis are as anxious for the United States to leave as many Americans are to see the end of the American commitment.
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I love Australia, but every godd*mn thing over there will kill you instantly if it touches you, including the women. Or so I've heard.
 
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