what do you think?

im all for abourtion, only because anything sprouting from seeds i plant, are gonna sprout to be just like me. thats a big no no.

but you have to consider rapes, immaculate conceptions, etc....
 
w_a_w said:
I was talking about aborting before the child was born...guess I didn't really make that clear...it's somewhat equivalent to taking someone off life support that's in a coma or brain dead imo
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i know you were talking about aborting. :fly: i just don't agree that it's equivalent.
 
and for the record, i know some cool, functional, "special needs" people.

handicap is all in what you make it, there was a special on some handicap chick starting a family. she did good.
 
One thing to remember is that handicapped people can surprise you and really do become productive members of society. After my bro's accidental drowning, my parents were told by doctors he'd be a vegetable the rest of his life, be wheelchair bound, requiring 24x7 nursing, etc etc. And now he can walk with assistance of crutches, can maintain a great conversation about history (he loves civil war info), and wrote a 170 page book by typing one letter with one finger at a time.
 
zengirl said:
I'm not condemning abortion, I believe that is every woman's right. What I don't agree with is frivolous use of an extreme measure.
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You just contradicted yourself.

You believe abortion is a right. You dont agree with 'frivolous use of an extreme measure.'

You are saying that sure it's ok, as long as I dont think it's frivolous. A right is a right is a right, no reason or justification needed. Make up your mind.
 
zengirl said:
Why would you abort a handicapped child?

The person who revolutionized the cattle slaughter industry is autistic. There are "perfectly healthy" pepole who are utterly useless, why does their lack of handicap entitle them to life moreso than anyone else?

I don't understand people.
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I am personally not selfless enough to take care of a handicap child. I know that about myself I am a selfish bitch. So, either I can have the child and keep the child and secretly wish that I never had the child. Or I can give the child up for adoption, but really what chance does a handicap kid have to get adopted. Or I can be realistic and abort.
 
ruthless said:
and for the record, i know some cool, functional, "special needs" people.

handicap is all in what you make it, there was a special on some handicap chick starting a family. she did good.
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if you want to read about some impressive cases check out "An Anthropologist on Mars". Includes the story of the autistic slaughterhouse designer zengirl mentioned, as well as the surgeon with tourette's, the colorblind artist and others. It's by Oliver Sacks.
 
FlamingGlory said:
You just contradicted yourself.

You believe abortion is a right. You dont agree with 'frivolous use of an extreme measure.'

You are saying that sure it's ok, as long as I dont think it's frivolous. A right is a right is a right, no reason or justification needed. Make up your mind.
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Contradictory is one way to look at it...

I say I don't have the right to condemn one for having an abortion, but on the same note no one else has the right to condemn me for NOT having one. I have as much of a right to choose life as anyone else has to chose choice.

make sense?
 
Jonny_B said:
if you want to read about some impressive cases check out "An Anthropologist on Mars". Includes the story of the autistic slaughterhouse designer zengirl mentioned, as well as the surgeon with tourette's, the colorblind artist and others. It's by Oliver Sacks.
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I am very impressed that you brought up Oliver Sacks :heart:
 
Jonny_B said:
if you want to read about some impressive cases check out "An Anthropologist on Mars". Includes the story of the autistic slaughterhouse designer zengirl mentioned, as well as the surgeon with tourette's, the colorblind artist and others. It's by Oliver Sacks.
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http://www.grandin.com/ That's the autistic lady, she actually wrote a book on animal behavior which I'm currently reading.
 
zengirl said:
Contradictory is one way to look at it...

I say I don't have the right to condemn one someone for having an abortion, but on the same note no one else has the right to condemn me for NOT having one. I have as much of a right to choose life as anyone else has to chose choice.

make sense?
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No one is telling you what to do though. You are putting forth an opinion on what someone else should do. You have condemned abortion for 'frivolous' purposes.

"What I don't agree with is frivolous use of an extreme measure."

Is clearly a commentary on the actions of others.
 
FlamingGlory said:
No one is telling you what to do though. You are putting forth an opinion on what someone else should do. You have condemned abortion for 'frivolous' purposes.

"What I don't agree with is frivolous use of an extreme measure."

Is clearly a commentary on the actions of others.
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Well I don't have to agree with it now do I? You seem to think that in order for me to support abortion I have to agree with all of it's implications. I don't believe I have to. It is indeed someone's right to abort their handicapped baby, but it doesn't mean I agree with their action.

This is how it goes, I don't agree with the frivolous use of abortion but I'd never deny someone else's right to that choice. How is this such a hard concept to grasp?

Maybe I've lived with Flynavy too long but I've come to think that just because I don't agree with something doesn't mean my opinion needs to be lawfully imposed upon others. I'm as entitled to my opinion as anyone... and that is all it is, an opinion. No I wouldn't abort a handicapped child.. and truth be told I'd actually be the person adopting the handicapped child, because that's the type of person I am. I always rescue crippled, broken, damaged and sick things.

So, what were we arguing about again? :p
 
Jonny_B said:
if you want to read about some impressive cases check out "An Anthropologist on Mars". Includes the story of the autistic slaughterhouse designer zengirl mentioned, as well as the surgeon with tourette's, the colorblind artist and others. It's by Oliver Sacks.
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sounds interesting, thanks
 
zengirl said:
Well I don't have to agree with it now do I? You seem to think that in order for me to support abortion I have to agree with all of it's implications. I don't believe I have to. It is indeed someone's right to abort their handicapped baby, but it doesn't mean I agree with their action.

This is how it goes, I don't agree with the frivolous use of abortion but I'd never deny someone else's right to that choice. How is this such a hard concept to grasp?

Maybe I've lived with Flynavy too long but I've come to think that just because I don't agree with something doesn't mean my opinion needs to be lawfully imposed upon others. I'm as entitled to my opinion as anyone... and that is all it is, an opinion. No I wouldn't abort a handicapped child.. and truth be told I'd actually be the person adopting the handicapped child, because that's the type of person I am. I always rescue crippled, broken, damaged and sick things.

So, what were we arguing about again? :p
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That isnt what you were saying before.

Either way:

I was saying that you'd not properly defined 'handicapped.' Seriously wtf does that mean? That's right, practically nothing. I cant argue over unclear topics so I attacked your obvious contradiction on abortion. 'Special needs' means fuck all, vegetarians are 'special needs'. There are retarded people, there is actually an entire scale that goes from severely retarded to mildly retarded (or touched as I like to say). Autism is not retardation. Down syndrome is a cause of retardation.

Is like saying "water." I'd ask what kind of water it is before putting down an opinion on it.
 
FlamingGlory said:
That isnt what you were saying before.

Either way:

I was saying that you'd not properly defined 'handicapped.' Seriously wtf does that mean? That's right, practically nothing. I cant argue over unclear topics so I attacked your obvious contradiction on abortion. 'Special needs' means fuck all, vegetarians are 'special needs'. There are retarded people, there is actually an entire scale that goes from severely retarded to mildly retarded (or touched as I like to say). Autism is not retardation. Down syndrome is a cause of retardation.

Is like saying "water." I'd ask what kind of water it is before putting down an opinion on it.
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You seem like an angry person. Do you need a hug? :)
 
Thorn Bird said:
i'm sitting here trying to figure out how people place validation on others' lives, myself included. this thread and the hpv thread just really made me think of how people can support issues completely different when the bottom line pertains to a common subject. for example, aborting a fetus because you know it will have special needs and others' insurances will go up. it's a population control thing, in a manner of speaking...but yet supporting a mandatory vaccination to keep the population healthy and thriving. i am in NO WAY attacking ANYONE here...it was just a thought that occured to me. in what ways do people form their opinions about mankind? what are the factors that persuade someone to place value on life? i'm trying to figure out how even *i* do it.
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To me, its strictly a monetary thing, as cold as that sounds. The drain on the economy that a handicapped person isn't worth it the majority of the time. I would rather my money be put to better use.
 
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