Thread Useless Politics

Harold of the Rocks said:
Well not here. More than half do not have diesel pumps here. The price of diesel high or low will have no affect on desire to install diesel pumps. The market for diesel will be the determining factor.

I'm pretty sure there not diesel alternatives for every single SUV and pickup in the US.
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First of all, I said cars. And second of all, the experiment Mercedes did with Jeep in testing the waters putting in their CDI diesel engine as an option in the Jeep Liberty exceeded their expectations in popularity. The model itself wasn't that good, nor that popular (that was Jeep's fault) but that engine option was more popular than Mercedes was expecting.

There is a market for a small turbo diesel engine in a small SUV. A larger market than most believe.
 
Harold of the Rocks said:
Well not here. More than half do not have diesel pumps here. The price of diesel high or low will have no affect on desire to install diesel pumps. The market for diesel will be the determining factor.

I'm pretty sure there not diesel alternatives for every single SUV and pickup in the US.
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Actually, yes there are. Every single pickup truck sold in the US has a diesel option in some other country. Every SUV the same, even the Ford Escape, has a diesel equivalent.
 
Harold of the Rocks said:
omg, people would never go for engine replacements! They would just wait until they buy their next car and then factor in the possibility of buying a diesel.
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Yes, true. what I am saying is from a manufacturing standpoint, it just takes GM to transplant a diesel from another market into a car they are selling here that was already designed to have a diesel option anyway. that effort is not that big.
 
Syrup Beaver said:
No, considering it's the EPA regulations that keep the engines out of the country, not a lack of infrastructure.
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no, they don't :waw: diesel engines are not kept out of the country by the EPA. if they did, you wouldn't be able to get diesel vehicles now. what the epa does is mandate standards for diesel engines to keep them from being the soot spewing abominations they were in the 70s and 80s. those regulations are the reason that diesel is a good idea here; the sulfur and cetane restrictions are only holding back the engines that would be detrimental to fuel economy and environmental affects.

you can't deny the infrastructure issues; it doesn't matter if every station around you has one diesel pump. that pump is not enough to service every customer that would come through that station if all of the gas engines were diesel. every station would have to make a major shift in its purchasing, storage and delivery methods in order to accommodate this. weeks? months? ninja please. a decade at best and diesel is not that much better. your call will not double in mileage because of diesel and the mileage increase you do get is a result of the higher standards for the fuel in the first place. you're not going to double your mileage using high sulfur/low cetane swill. california diesel is what makes the idea cleaner and more fuel efficient than gas.
 
Harold of the Rocks said:
I really hate that bullshit "better person" crap people try to sell you in order for you to conform to however they would like you to be.
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If you state facts with proof rather than name calling, the point comes across more effectively and you are practicing what you learned after primary school, that studying and not name calling is what adults do.
 
Harold of the Rocks said:
omg, people would never go for engine replacements! They would just wait until they buy their next car and then factor in the possibility of buying a diesel.
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:confused: well. right.

granted some people would shell out for engine replacements but most of the population barely gets their oil changed on a regular basis
 
SemperFly said:
no, they don't :waw: diesel engines are not kept out of the country by the EPA. if they did, you wouldn't be able to get diesel vehicles now. what the epa does is mandate standards for diesel engines to keep them from being the soot spewing abominations they were in the 70s and 80s. those regulations are the reason that diesel is a good idea here; the sulfur and cetane restrictions are only holding back the engines that would be detrimental to fuel economy and environmental affects.

you can't deny the infrastructure issues; it doesn't matter if every station around you has one diesel pump. that pump is not enough to service every customer that would come through that station if all of the gas engines were diesel. every station would have to make a major shift in its purchasing, storage and delivery methods in order to accommodate this. weeks? months? ninja please. a decade at best and diesel is not that much better. your call will not double in mileage because of diesel and the mileage increase you do get is a result of the higher standards for the fuel in the first place. you're not going to double your mileage using high sulfur/low cetane swill. california diesel is what makes the idea cleaner and more fuel efficient than gas.
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The DOT cannot approve the sales of certain engines because of EPA regulations outlawing them. Tell me again how the EPA isn't influencing diesel car production and distribution and sales?
 
dbzeag said:
I am pretty sure that if diesel was priced like it should be (based on the cost of refining, not more heavily taxed because the trucking corporations can bear the burden and the EPA requires higher taxes because of higher emissions), it would be CHEAPER than gas. and with the fact that diesel engines last longer because the fuel works as lubrication as well, maintenance costs would be less. Those two factors alone would change the outlook on diesel quite quickly. I know for a fact I would be driving a diesel ford Fusion right now if that mondeo engine came over here. Or if a the common rail diesel of the focus came over here, I would be driving that in a heartbeat.
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but you, me and other car aficionados are not representative of the driving public. I would love a diesel option in every vehicle but that's not going to happen just because the price of the fuel goes down.

for diesel to have been a viable method of improving our energy efficiency and environmental effects it would have had to start decades ago. by now it's too late; switching over to diesel would take far too long to see a benefit when the R&D focus can go toward methods that don't require fossil fuels at all
 
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shamwow said:
whaaa? I think maybe maybe 1/2 at best
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Every full sized truck has a diesel equivalent in the EU. Every SUV by Kia and Hyundai and Mitsubishi have a diesel option in Asia. The Ford SUVs have diesel options in EU. Even the new Escape replacement (the Kuga) is rumored to be sending their diesel platform over to North America. And in the crossover SUVs or CUVs, the cars they are based on have a diesel option, so as a platform twin, it wouldn't too difficult to transplant that engine into that CUV or SUV body.
 
SemperFly said:
but you, me and other car aficionados are not representative of the driving public. I would love a diesel option in every vehicle but that's not going to happen just because the price of the fuel goes down.

for diesel to have been a viable method of improving our energy efficiency and environmental effects it would have had to start decades ago. by now it's too late; switching over to diesel would take far too long to see a benefit when the R&D focus can go toward methods that don't require fossil fuels at all
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Have the option of even being able to buy the diesel option in the car we want + pricing the fuel near to what it's supposed to be + taxing the fuel to an appropriate level for the new emission and sulfur standards the fuel now supports and you will find a lot of converts real quick.
 
SemperFly said:
no, they don't :waw: diesel engines are not kept out of the country by the EPA. if they did, you wouldn't be able to get diesel vehicles now. what the epa does is mandate standardsfor diesel engines to keep them from being the soot spewing abominations they were in the 70s and 80s. those regulations are the reason that diesel is a good idea here; the sulfur and cetane restrictions are only holding back the engines that would be detrimental to fuel economy and environmental affects.
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Same thing.
 
dbzeag said:
The DOT cannot approve the sales of certain engines because of EPA regulations outlawing them. Tell me again how the EPA isn't influencing diesel car production and distribution and sales?
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I didn't say it's not influencing it, I said it's not stopping it. Those epa regulations can be met and are done so every year. It's those regulations that require the engines to run on better fuel that make the engines a viable alternative. If manufacturers were able to sell diesel engines without the regulations they would not be as clean and efficient which would remove the major benefits from switching over in the first place.
 
SemperFly said:
for diesel to have been a viable method of improving our energy efficiency and environmental effects it would have had to start decades ago. by now it's too late; switching over to diesel would take far too long to see a benefit when the R&D focus can go toward methods that don't require fossil fuels at all
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If you believe that things will happen soon I suppose, I don't, if you want to talk lack of infrastructure then hyrdogen is light years behind diesel.

And electric cars are only as clean as the power source, not to mention the hideously toxic batteries.
 
SemperFly said:
it started off with a simple refutation of an illogical notion, when he decided to take it to the level of retardation by somehow extending the argument to faith in government agencies I responded in kind. ask a stupid question get a stupid answer; make an asshole comment get an asshole response
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You get so emotionally charged during arguments sometimes... you aren't the only one, but I feel like calling you out. :lol:
dbzeag said:
If you state facts with proof rather than name calling, the point comes across more effectively and you are practicing what you learned after primary school, that studying and not name calling is what adults do.
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tsrh
 
dbzeag said:
Have the option of even being able to buy the diesel option in the car we want + pricing the fuel near to what it's supposed to be + taxing the fuel to an appropriate level for the new emission and sulfur standards the fuel now supports and you will find a lot of converts real quick.
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but "real quick" doesn't translate to the entire driving public just switching over in a matter of weeks or months. these issues are not that simple
 
SemperFly said:
I didn't say it's not influencing it, I said it's not stopping it. Those epa regulations can be met and are done so every year. It's those regulations that require the engines to run on better fuel that make the engines a viable alternative. If manufacturers were able to sell diesel engines without the regulations they would not be as clean and efficient which would remove the major benefits from switching over in the first place.
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Dude, I drove a car that's not for sale in the US in England and got 60mpg with their "filthy" non-EPA approved diesel, a similar model with a petrol engine gets in the high 20's here.
 
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