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Ontopic To piggyback on the gun thread, why don't the prisons work?

Discussion in 'useless chatter' started by Mr. Asa, Jan 17, 2013.

  1. Those who are of the opinion that prison is an easy place to be might be interested in reading this account. Whilst it's not Devil's Island, I'm not sure it's not a place any of us would describe as better than our normal lives. If it really is better there than outside for some then it's a sad indictment of how some fall through the cracks.
  2. This. If you are convicted of a drug offense, you can never get student loans. And these days, that pretty much leaves you doomed to never get an education. Hmmm, guess its back to dealing drugs.

    I mean seriously, what fucking idiot came up with that law.
  3. I agree with a lot of what a lot of you are saying. I was going to quote, but that would be tedious, so assume if I mention what you've said here it's because I'm agreeing and clarifying, and not because I'm trying to take credit for the idea:

    Rehabilitation vs. Punishment is a big thing, and goes hand in hand with the idea of being lesser citizens upon release, and with the idea of people going to prison for ridiculous frivolous charges.
    What happens is you get a dude that goes to prison for some stupid minor bullshit, and he goes in a nice, quiet, mostly law-abiding guy, and you've got him in with hardened career-criminals.
    And eventually, you release him, and now he's got a felony charge on his record, so any time he applies for a job, he has to indicate that yes, he has a felony. So now, his choice of jobs is severely limited. Jobs are scarce enough as it is for people who are highly qualified in their fields, imagine how hard it would be for this motherfucker to find a job. Suddenly, with a need to put food on the table, maybe for a wife and kids, and then, maybe the idea of committing a crime to try and get some money isn't such a crazy one. Suddenly, it's about all he has left. Stigma associated with being a criminal is a huge factor in recidivism.

    Punishment vs. rehabilitation: I have a huge problem with people who ONLY want to treat it as punishment, for several reasons.

    The first, Mortlach covered pretty well. Sure, it's easy to say "oh, that guy's a waste of life, don't bother making him better, it'll never work and he's not worth it" because I do the same bullshit to talk myself out of trying anything new or scary. "Oh, I'll just fail, so why try." It's easy to do, because it requires you to do nothing. But if you do nothing, nothing changes, and if you don't at least TRY to change them, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy because they often DO keep fucking up (because you've done nothing) and then you say "see, what a fuckup," ignoring the fact that you are making no logical sense.
    The second would be that, OK, if you are hellbent on chalking it all up to punishment, then when punishment is over and a person has served their time, they shouldn't be treated as scum. If you're going to sentence them to a predetermined amount of prison time, then once they've served it CONTINUE to essentially encourage the rest of their life to treat them as subhuman garbage, that's kind of fucked up, because the punishment never ends.

    Frivolous charges:
    as an aside: I also have a huge problem with the way America treats addiction and mental health. Because there is such a huge stigma associated with addiction, people are less likely to seek help. This is because they know that if they admit to addiction, they are more likely to be arrested for it than to actually receive treatment for it, and they will always have a mark on their record stating that they were/are an addict. They know that they are more likely to be punished than helped, and so seeking "help" is not their best-case-scenario. The idea of trying to get off the addiction themselves becomes more appealing and less threatening, even if never works, because of the bullshit their lives become if they are arrested for it- after that, it doesn't matter if they're clean and sober for 3 months or 30 years, they're always going to have to be that guy that has felony drug charges because they did heroin back then. This ties in with the previous rant, re: rehabilitation vs. punishment- people don't care if you've really rehabilitated yourself or not, they'd often prefer that these addicts were permanently punished via social sanctions, because omg they're just going to start using again anyway. And then their life is shit, everyone hates them/treats them like shit, they can't get a job, and suddenly the idea of nodding out isn't so bad again, because what use is it to get clean if they'll never escape persecution for it?

    back to frivolous charges part: so, on that, I think there needs to be a reworking on how addicts and people caught with drugs are treated. I'm not saying nobody should ever be arrested for any drugs, that's not my point at all, but a complete overhaul of how all of it is treated is needed.

    And it's not far-fetched to believe that the reason people of color comprise a disproportionate amount of the prison population isn't because they're more likely to commit crimes, but because they're more likely to be charged (unfairly) and more likely to be convicted. They're even more likely to be sentenced to death dependent upon whether their alleged victim was white or not. Drugs associated with people of color led to sentences above and beyond the essentially equivalent white-counterpart to the drug (i.e. crack cocaine vs. cocaine, thankfully in 2010 with the Fair Sentencing Act this disparity was at least lowered).
  4. jesuschrist @ the "digging a hole"
  5. I grew up down the road froma guy that went away for 20 for a drug-related murder. By the time i was a kid he was getting out, served his full sentence. My parents were always a little cautious of him, but they never badmouthed him or treated him different. By the time he got out, he was a different guy, he had had two kids grow up without him, and wasnt a kid himself anymore who made bad decisions. Helpful guy, would pull you out if you got stuck during mud season with his tractor, never caused any trouble. Real quiet, but never got in trouble with the law again. I always figured you serve your time, you've paid the price, you're done. You're just like the rest of us now.
  6. more on frivolous charges:
    you can be deemed a sex offender for pissing in public.

    teens can be deemed sex offenders for sexting each other.

    if I'd been ratted out, I could have been charged with a misdemeanor when I was living in NY and being a sexy sexy high school girl, because
    "Sex with a person under 17 is a misdemeanor if the perpetrator is at least 16 (see infra). (“Sexual misconduct,” NY Penal Law § 130.20.)"
    ... I was 17, dude was 16. I was also 16 and with a 15 year old. And I was 14 and with a 16 year old.
    This was consensual sex, and the people involved were close in age, but technically we were breaking the law, and technically breaking the law is the same as brazenly breaking the law or awesomely breaking the law or totally breaking the law. It's all breaking the law (I hope you're all singing Judas Priest in your head by now, or do I need to keep saying breaking the law breaking the law, breaking the law breaking the law)
  7. And that is a good attitude to have, but it is not the attitude many seem to have.
    It's the same with death penalty people. I'm opposed to the death penalty anyway, but I get sick to my stomach when people are like "OH, HE DID x IN HIS MURDER? WE SHOULD DO THAT BACK TO HIM, THAT'LL SHOW HIM"
    look, either way the dude dies, but with you(general you, not domon-you) shouting for disembowlment or torture, what makes you any better than he?
  8. I seriously don't get people that say that prison isn't so bad. I honestly have no frame of reference for how much I don't want to have to do that.
  9. I'm not saying prison is awesome, I would never want to be there. compared to how some people live though I'm sure they get used to the inside lifestyle and prefer it over the stress of starving on the streets.

    face it, the only thing making our prisons bad are the other prisoners.

  10. Actually that's not true. The guards don't improve it much.
  11. The guards just do their jobs, and it's also I job I wouldn't want. They are stabbing, raping, and beating up other prisoners for shits and giggles though. I don't most prisoners are worried about the guards at night.
  12. Most guards are in the position of being way underpaid for doing an incredibly dangerous/difficult job.
  13. Did you read that link at all? As the guy says, why would you learn how to do crime from somebody that got caught?
  14. Read that link
  15. Prison in the US is seen as a rite of passage for a large part of the people that are sent to prison now. It's too socially acceptable in the thug crowd.

    For the classes where it's not socially accepted the people that go are more often than not allowed back in with their peers. You never make it back to the social standing where you were before you went in. What motivation are you giving people to rehab?
  16. I think you are talking out of your ass
  17. In the rap community you aren't considered a real thug without some jail time under your belt. I lived in a ghetto area for a while and they all would brag about their jail time and where.
  18. That may have been true at one point
  19. The prison system has no incentive to rehab criminals. Their economy is based on having large numbers of inmates. That economy is further supported by the privatization of prisons.
  20. When did I say it's a good place to learn to be a criminal?

    I didn't read the link but I read it along time ago, pretty sure there is a thread here about it. iirc the guy didn't have a great time in prison because he aspired for allot more in life, but for some who didn't want to work and didn't want freedom, it might be an ok life style.