Should I go to Cleveland Pride today?

Sarcasmo said:
Displays of pride when it comes to trivial personal beliefs and circumstances really serve no purpose at all and do nothing but further segregate the masses. The issue essentially becomes nothing more than "Look, we're different and we're going to make sure everyone knows it!" Sexual orientation? Give me a fucking break. Like that's really cause for celebration. Who cares, and why do we all have to hear about it? There's no difference between that and the Aryan nation.

White guy: "I'm white! Fuck yeah!!"

Me: "Good for you. Why does it make you so happy?"

White guy: "Because I'm fucking WHITE!"

Me: :confused:

Who exactly is that helping, and how?

Sorry, but if you're going to go out and call as much attention to yourself as possible it damn well should be worth it. And who you like to screw or who you're attracted to isn't a relevant issue.


In the end... it doesn't even matter.



One thing, I don't know why
It doesn't even matter how hard you try
Keep that in mind i designed this rhyme to explain in due time
To remind myself how
I tried so hard
In spite of the way you were mocking me

... ya.
 
Sarcasmo said:
I don't understand the need for gay pride anything. Who gives a shit? Yay, I'm straight. Let's all gather in a park and talk about how hetero we are and wave flags and shit.
It's like Black History Month, or Cinco de Mayo. And it's more for the gay individuals themselves than everyone else, it's a time and a place to celebrate that aspect of themselves, and to be in a place where homosexuality is universally accepted and embraced, even for a couple days out of the year.

I'll probably be going to mine with friends next weekend ^__^
 
mattcohn.com said:
It's like Black History Month, or Cinco de Mayo. And it's more for the gay individuals themselves than everyone else, it's a time and a place to celebrate that aspect of themselves, and to be in a place where homosexuality is universally accepted and embraced, even for a couple days out of the year.

I'll probably be going to mine with friends next weekend ^__^

Black History Month is another activity which ultimately causes separatism. If we all want to be equal, than we need to stop celebrating special interest groups and we all need to start acting like equals. Why don't we just have human history month or human sexuality pride day? It would certainly better serve the interests of making everyone feel equal. Homosexuality is never going to be universally accepted if we keep making people feel attacked by it or separated from it. Pride day does just that.
 
eileenbunny said:
Black History Month is another activity which ultimately causes separatism. If we all want to be equal, than we need to stop celebrating special interest groups and we all need to start acting like equals. Why don't we just have human history month or human sexuality pride day? It would certainly better serve the interests of making everyone feel equal. Homosexuality is never going to be universally accepted if we keep making people feel attacked by it or separated from it. Pride day does just that.
Well, it isn't as universally accepted as it should be, but we've made amazing strides toward embracing black people, even with a black history month so I think it's a little far to say that GLBTs will never be universally accepted even if the community itself has pride in who they are.

I also think it's not accurate to say that gay pride makes anyone feel attacked. Pride is about a celebration of one's self, not degradation of others. Additionally regarding people feeling 'separated', all people are welcome and accepted at gay pride events, not just GLBT people. I have met several straight individuals at previous pride festivals, I think the situation of anyone feeling 'separated' from gay people isn't due to these events but due to their underlying fear of the unknown. That just emphasises the need for gay pride, to promote awareness.
 
mattcohn.com said:
Well, it isn't as universally accepted as it should be, but we've made amazing strides toward embracing black people, even with a black history month so I think it's a little far to say that GLBTs will never be universally accepted even if the community itself has pride in who they are.
It will never be universally accepted. It never has been, and honestly doesn't look like it will be.

I also think it's not accurate to say that gay pride makes anyone feel attacked. Pride is about a celebration of one's self, not degradation of others. Additionally regarding people feeling 'separated', all people are welcome and accepted at gay pride events, not just GLBT people. I have met several straight individuals at previous pride festivals, I think the situation of anyone feeling 'separated' from gay people isn't due to these events but due to their underlying fear of the unknown. That just emphasises the need for gay pride, to promote awareness.
I don't know about you but around here they usually stake out churches and harrass people. Hold up signs usually having something to do with "Breeders"... Ah yes, the spirit of harmony. I only wish I had bothered to go downtown with my camera.

Not to mention showing up for every "peace rally" and holding up signs that state in no uncertain terms they are gay.

Two conclusions in my mind from that. They are exclusive and they politicise their "orientation" at every chance they get. Which leads me to the judgement I can be just as exclusive, bigoted, and generally unfriendly as they are, I can associate them with the political causes they support and criticise them as a group about it.
 
mattcohn.com said:
Well, it isn't as universally accepted as it should be, but we've made amazing strides toward embracing black people, even with a black history month so I think it's a little far to say that GLBTs will never be universally accepted even if the community itself has pride in who they are.

I also think it's not accurate to say that gay pride makes anyone feel attacked. Pride is about a celebration of one's self, not degradation of others. Additionally regarding people feeling 'separated', all people are welcome and accepted at gay pride events, not just GLBT people. I have met several straight individuals at previous pride festivals, I think the situation of anyone feeling 'separated' from gay people isn't due to these events but due to their underlying fear of the unknown. That just emphasises the need for gay pride, to promote awareness.



you needed a title
 
FlamingGlory said:
It will never be universally accepted. It never has been, and honestly doesn't look like it will be.


I don't know about you but around here they usually stake out churches and harrass people. Hold up signs usually having something to do with "Breeders"... Ah yes, the spirit of harmony. I only wish I had bothered to go downtown with my camera.

Not to mention showing up for every "peace rally" and holding up signs that state in no uncertain terms they are gay.

Two conclusions in my mind from that. They are exclusive and they politicise their "orientation" at every chance they get. Which leads me to the judgement I can be just as exclusive, bigoted, and generally unfriendly as they are, I can associate them with the political causes they support and criticise them as a group about it.

I can't believe I'm doing this, but I have to agree with you. Being proud of who you are doesn't mean that you have to go in the streets and shout about what you do in the bedroom. Nobody cares unless you stick it in their faces, and that's when people start getting offended. Nobody wants heterosexuals advertising their bedroom habits in the streets either. I don't really care who does what to whom, or what color they are when they do it, I just don't think it should be an issue at all.

The GLBT community is often rude or standoffish to the heterosexual community just as the black community is often prejudice toward the white community. None of this is ever going to stop as long as we keep separating ourselves into communities. White people are still going to get pissed because there can be a Miss Black America, but god forbid we have Miss White America (that would be racist). Straight people are still going to get upset because gay people are marching in the streets trying to promote their bedroom habits, which is really something that should stay in the bedroom!!! When's the last time you saw a straight pride day?
 
FlamingGlory said:
It will never be universally accepted. It never has been, and honestly doesn't look like it will be.


I don't know about you but around here they usually stake out churches and harrass people. Hold up signs usually having something to do with "Breeders"... Ah yes, the spirit of harmony. I only wish I had bothered to go downtown with my camera.

I'm sorry to hear that, I don't condone that and haven't heard of it happening here in the northwest. In fact this is the first I've heard of that happening at all.

FlamingGlory said:
Not to mention showing up for every "peace rally" and holding up signs that state in no uncertain terms they are gay.

Two conclusions in my mind from that. They are exclusive and they politicise their "orientation" at every chance they get. Which leads me to the judgement I can be just as exclusive, bigoted, and generally unfriendly as they are, I can associate them with the political causes they support and criticise them as a group about it.
The whole question of sexual orientation has already been politicised from the start. You have to understand where people are coming from to understand where people are at. Imagine for a second being gay in a conservative city. You know exactly what you are but can't tell anyone for fear of being outcast from friends and family. You have to hide yourself to survive, being carefull to act straight all the time, maybe get a girlfriend to cover. If your parents do find out, you could be sent to a religious 'gay to straight' camp, or just be simply thrown out of the house. There are shelters for gay youth even in as liberal places in Seattle because I'm not making this up, it DOES happen.
Finally our country is progressing toward a place and time where it is even possible to attend a public gay pride festival to embrace that side of you that you have been hiding from society and the world for so long, without fear of being beaten to death (even though it still occasionally happens). Queer culture has amazing individuals and groups and is something to be celebrated. Additionally, businesses and organizations set up booths targeted at GLBT people including pride clothing, youth organizations, support groups both general and specialized, youth camps like camp ten trees here in the northwest, and groups like the human rights organization which fight for the legal equality of gay people.
I hear you saying that if gay people were truly equal, why would they need this sort of an event? Well it's the exact same argument used against *any* sort of individual group, women, blacks and minorities, etc. "Equal" is not the same as "The exact same as". While we now legally recognize black people as equal to white people, I think a black person would be offended if you said they were the exact same as you since you would be negating their cultural history, and the strugles they face as a minority. It's the exact same for queer people.
 
eileenbunny said:
I can't believe I'm doing this, but I have to agree with you. Being proud of who you are doesn't mean that you have to go in the streets and shout about what you do in the bedroom. Nobody cares unless you stick it in their faces, and that's when people start getting offended. Nobody wants heterosexuals advertising their bedroom habits in the streets either.
Pride parades as I said earlier are about an expression and celebration of queer people and queer culture, not about advertising bedroom habits. I don't believe I've ever seen someone going down the street shouting "I take it up the ass." What might make you automatically jump to conclusions about gay people's sexual behaviors? That's a serious question by the way, fear of the unknown? Or the fact that gay sex is seen by society as degrading, instead of a beautiful act to be performed in Christian wedlock?

eileenbunny said:
I don't really care who does what to whom, or what color they are when they do it, I just don't think it should be an issue at all.

The GLBT community is often rude or standoffish to the heterosexual community just as the black community is often prejudice toward the white community.
Yes, once hate starts it's hard to be caught in the crossfire. I'm not trying to stand up for every single action of every single gay individual, I'm just saying that although racism caused some members of the black community to lash out against members of the white community, it was still important for leaders to stand up and promote the cause of civil rights.
eileenbunny said:
None of this is ever going to stop as long as we keep separating ourselves into communities. White people are still going to get pissed because there can be a Miss Black America, but god forbid we have Miss White America (that would be racist). Straight people are still going to get upset because gay people are marching in the streets trying to promote their bedroom habits, which is really something that should stay in the bedroom!!! When's the last time you saw a straight pride day?
The last time I saw a straight pride day was the last time I saw a white pride day or a caucasian history month or a men's history month. And the same things people say in support of black history month or women's history month apply... that culture celebrates heterosexuality every day. Everytime an office group is sitting down for lunch and the gay workers feel embarased to discuss their home life, that's straight pride day. Everytime a high school girl is deathly affraid to tell her crush she likes her for fear of being an outcast, that's straight pride day.

No, within our lifetime we will probably never be truly equal. And yes, throughout that time there will be resistance and fear. However that doesn't make it any less important to strugle and fight for equality on the legal side, while at the same time celebrating and educating about queer culture on the social side.
 
People don't want equality, they want to be different.

Gays, straights, blacks, whites...for all the talking we all do about love and acceptance, if we ever achieved it we would have nothing that sets us apart beneath something as broad as the umbrella of social or racial stratification. Do we want to render those two categories irrelevant? Of course not. People go out of their way to stand out, to be recognized as being different and to demand special considerations for those differences. Gender preference and race are the crown jewels of special interests.

Politicians would lose entire platforms, activists would would have to embrace other, far lesser causes, charities would have to redirect entire networks of contributions, student bodies would have to focus on academics...it would be complete chaos.

Blacks would have to accept sole responsibility for the decline of their culture and the stagnant state of their youth, and whites would have to identify a new 'enemy of society', stop looking at them sideways, and try for once to fully support them in their endeavors without being condescending or patronizing. Everyone would have to suck it up, rediscover accountability, and find it within themselves to make their own lives better without waiting for someone else to fix the problem. And let's face it, that requires an awful lot of time and money.

Gays, on the other hand, would have to realize that who you love isn't what defines you, and that there is actually something to be said for being conservative at times and not throwing things in peoples' faces. Straight people would have to come to terms with the fact that being gay isn't a mental disorientation, nor some biblical scourge sent by Satan or aliens to assault their lifestyles or their beliefs. It's completely irrelevant, and a harmless non-issue.

That having been said, this country thrives on prejudice. It's who we are. It's a traditional scapegoat, a powerful lobbying tool, and an attention-grabbing headline. Think of all the people who would be out of jobs if we had something as nefarious as equality. Who the hell wants to declare themself an 'American American?' It just sounds lame. It's much more exotic to latch onto something like 'African American', 'Lithuanian America', 'Californian American' or 'Alcoholic American'. There's money to be had in those titles.
 
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mattcohn.com said:
Pride parades as I said earlier are about an expression and celebration of queer people and queer culture, not about advertising bedroom habits. I don't believe I've ever seen someone going down the street shouting "I take it up the ass." What might make you automatically jump to conclusions about gay people's sexual behaviors? That's a serious question by the way, fear of the unknown? Or the fact that gay sex is seen by society as degrading, instead of a beautiful act to be performed in Christian wedlock?

See, that's just it, I don't understand "queer culture" as you put it. I don't think my sexual preferences define me as a person. In my mind, being gay is about bedroom habits, not culture. Heterosexual is bedroom habits too, not culture. In my personal case, bisexual is my bedroom habits, not who I am. I don't need other people to know I like sucking dick as much as I like eating pussy. I haven't developed culture around it, it just is what I prefer in the bedroom. It doesn't have to leave there. It doesn't define what kind of art I like, or where I go to dance, or even what I talk about very often. I don't have this burning need to tell people about it all the time.

Why are there so many people that are that way? This "queer culture" you speak of makes it seem like that's all these people are. I'm not explaining myself very well, but I just don't get why there has to be a "queer culture". This is a one-dimensional way of being in my opinion. I've got no problems with men taking it up the ass, or women taking it up the ass, or men dressing up like women and taking it up the ass by women wearing a dildos. I really don't care at all. It's not disgusting. It's not scary. It doesn't effect me at all. I just think that it's not my business. I also think that it isn't a good basis for developing self identity or culture. I'm bisexual. I'm also a lover of art, computer games, political science, cats, and music. I can find lots of other things to talk about in public besides who I choose to sleep with. Most heterosexuals don't feel the need to talk about it either.

mattcohn.com said:
The last time I saw a straight pride day was the last time I saw a white pride day or a caucasian history month or a men's history month. And the same things people say in support of black history month or women's history month apply... that culture celebrates heterosexuality every day. Everytime an office group is sitting down for lunch and the gay workers feel embarased to discuss their home life, that's straight pride day. Everytime a high school girl is deathly affraid to tell her crush she likes her for fear of being an outcast, that's straight pride day.

No, within our lifetime we will probably never be truly equal. And yes, throughout that time there will be resistance and fear. However that doesn't make it any less important to strugle and fight for equality on the legal side, while at the same time celebrating and educating about queer culture on the social side.

Why not have white male pride day? I think that at this stage in our society this is the most discriminated against group of people out there. Nobody likes them anymore because they've been made out as the evil supressors of civil liberties. Poor bastards. As for your gay workers being embarassed to discuss their home life, well, I would say that's their problem really. I've never been embarassed to mention my girlfriend or my boyfriend if it's relevant to the conversation. I'm too proud to worry about being made an outcast. You know what I've learned from having that attitude? The less of an issue I make of it, the less people care and the less I am discriminated against.
 
Gay pride parades most usually show the side of gay culture that most people have the hardest time accepting. They don't help promote acceptance by any means, and more often seem to be contradictive to it.
 
Who wants to join me in an all male white pride march? Oh wait we couldnt do that because it would be raciest and sexist.

edit - I am sure this was said but I didnt feel like reading those huge post's
 
BeeRad said:
Who wants to join me in an all male white pride march? Oh wait we couldnt do that because it would be raciest and sexist.

We'd all get beaten, arrested, killed, or all three.
 
mattcohn.com said:
Pride parades as I said earlier are about an expression and celebration of queer people and queer culture, not about advertising bedroom habits. I don't believe I've ever seen someone going down the street shouting "I take it up the ass." What might make you automatically jump to conclusions about gay people's sexual behaviors? That's a serious question by the way, fear of the unknown? Or the fact that gay sex is seen by society as degrading, instead of a beautiful act to be performed in Christian wedlock?

Who are you trying to kid? Celebrating sexual orientation is exactly the same thing as advertising bedroom habits. I cannot congregate with other straight men under the auspices that we all sleep with women and call it anything else. Otherwise the words queer and straight wouldn't be specifically associated. "Gay pride" is an advertisement of your gayness (which has to do with sex, not food or cars or sports or mountain climbing), and I refuse to believe that you don't actually understand that correlation.


mattcohn.com said:
Yes, once hate starts it's hard to be caught in the crossfire. I'm not trying to stand up for every single action of every single gay individual, I'm just saying that although racism caused some members of the black community to lash out against members of the white community, it was still important for leaders to stand up and promote the cause of civil rights.

The last time I saw a straight pride day was the last time I saw a white pride day or a caucasian history month or a men's history month. And the same things people say in support of black history month or women's history month apply... that culture celebrates heterosexuality every day. Everytime an office group is sitting down for lunch and the gay workers feel embarased to discuss their home life, that's straight pride day. Everytime a high school girl is deathly affraid to tell her crush she likes her for fear of being an outcast, that's straight pride day.

I think that is more about you than the straight people you are with. You see prejudice everywhere you go whether it's there or not, and you are insecure enough about yourself to not feel comfortable discussing your personal or sex lives with straight people. Don't blame that on me. The issue here isn't the fact that I judge you or that lesbian girl in high school, it's the fact that you are afraid I WILL judge you. And that's a HUGE difference. It's a presumed prejudice. I don't care if it has happened to you a thousand times. Don't assume it will happen a thousand and one times. That's you being prejudice towards straight people on an only slightly different level.
 
Oh, and for those of you (straight or gay) who think that gay pride parades are merely an 'innocent celebration of queer culture and their longing to be accepted', do me a favor and run a google image search for "gay pride parade" and tell me what you see.

Then find me an average rational person who DOESN'T think that that could be considered throwing your sexuality in someone's face.
 
Sarcasmo said:
Oh, and for those of you (straight or gay) who think that gay pride parades are merely an 'innocent celebration of queer culture and their longing to be accepted', do me a favor and run a google image search for "gay pride parade" and tell me what you see.

Then find me an average rational person who DOESN'T think that that could be considered throwing your sexuality in someone's face.
I was in quite early on in this thread. Nothing more than in your face queerdom.