Ontopic Even the New York Times admits...

Casper

Bobbert Cheapstein
Oct 6, 2009
8,299
365
41
let's talk about how profit plays into that.

The doctor is paid to have the conversation, so saying,
is within the bounds.

As soon as the patient says 'yes,' it's what you call instruction. And profit can easily play motive in the instruction. . .

this is not difficult for you to understand.

Profit for the doctor is not profit for the government though.

On one hand you're saying cynically, the doctor will advise the most expensive procedures so he can get the most reimbursement.

On the other hand, you're saying the government will incentivise doctors to do the cheapest procedures to cut costs.

So which is it?
 
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Casper

Bobbert Cheapstein
Oct 6, 2009
8,299
365
41
The government doesn't have control. If you don't like the recommendations your doctor is making, you're welcome to get a second, third, or fourth opinion. You've already proven to the detriment of your own argument that the best interests of doctors and government stand in opposition to one another.
 

Amstel

The Hoarse Whisperer
Jul 12, 2009
28,172
12,439
473
you're a whore, but in a good way. Kindof.
No. Again, you keep going down some road that doesn't exist to make a point. Some people rely on medicare because they have become "the insurance company." they no longer have choice. All doctors have exactly the same receivables with medicare. Procedure X pays exactly the same amount through medicare no matter what doctor you go to.

This is the detriment of obamacare.

this is what propagates rationing and death panels.

You have no argument and continue with meaningless rhetoric like
the best interests of doctors and government stand in opposition to one another.

they don't stand in opposition with medicare. There's no 'out of network' for medicare. You get that don't you?

Government panels decide your treatment, the doctors merely apply it according to the governments rules.

Quit being silly with your conjecture.
 

eileenbunny

Druish Princess
May 25, 2005
13,347
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Columbia, Maryland, United States
no. what I'm saying is that the most profitable wins over the less profitable. it wins every time.
Less profitable = death panel.

No to mention, they'll help you with legal directives too! Will they provide you your own lawyer to tell them what's up? nope. . .

Usually a medical directive is drawn up with a patient and a doctor and a notary public. There's usually not a lawyer involved. No need. Go to a doctor you trust, draw up the directive while you are healthy. The whole profit thing is no different. Doctors already push for the care that gets them the most money. New medical program or no, this is the way medical care in this country is.

No. Again, you keep going down some road that doesn't exist to make a point. Some people rely on medicare because they have become "the insurance company." they no longer have choice. All doctors have exactly the same receivables with medicare. Procedure X pays exactly the same amount through medicare no matter what doctor you go to.

This is the detriment of obamacare.

this is what propagates rationing and death panels.

You have no argument and continue with meaningless rhetoric like

they don't stand in opposition with medicare. There's no 'out of network' for medicare. You get that don't you?

Government panels decide your treatment, the doctors merely apply it according to the governments rules.

Quit being silly with your conjecture.

To date I am the only person I know who has read the entire health care bill as it was passed and I don't remember reading this anywhere. I remember reading how there will be limits set on how much a procedure should cost, how insurance companies will have less control over how much things cost, and how the government will intervene in this. I remember reading how taking a proactive approach toward discussing all options of treatment for severe illness should be promoted. I don't remember anything about death panels. Rationing already happens. It's those who can afford health care that get it now and unfortunately it's really friggin expensive. Everyone else has to pray that someone will help them. I know this for a fact. I've been that guy. Death panels right now are insurance companies who have made the medical industry the most profitable thing in this country next to drugs and guns and porn. I think you are arguing that things are going to get worse. I don't see how they could. Why don't we stop arguing right or left wing and make some legislation that makes sense and actually cares for the people who need caring for? Is that really too much to ask? A bunch of rich guys arguing with a bunch of other rich guys about how to distribute wealth at the expense of sick people makes me sick. I hate that we are blaming President Obama. At least he's trying. It's way more than we can say for anyone else. He knew he wasn't going to be popular. Nobody who tries to effect change ever is. I hope he gets change because we have to try something else. What's happening now isn't working.
 

JAXvillain

Curly_Sue
Oct 13, 2004
68,202
1,642
923
Usually a medical directive is drawn up with a patient and a doctor and a notary public. There's usually not a lawyer involved. No need. Go to a doctor you trust, draw up the directive while you are healthy. The whole profit thing is no different. Doctors already push for the care that gets them the most money. New medical program or no, this is the way medical care in this country is.



To date I am the only person I know who has read the entire health care bill as it was passed and I don't remember reading this anywhere. I remember reading how there will be limits set on how much a procedure should cost, how insurance companies will have less control over how much things cost, and how the government will intervene in this. I remember reading how taking a proactive approach toward discussing all options of treatment for severe illness should be promoted. I don't remember anything about death panels. Rationing already happens. It's those who can afford health care that get it now and unfortunately it's really friggin expensive. Everyone else has to pray that someone will help them. I know this for a fact. I've been that guy. Death panels right now are insurance companies who have made the medical industry the most profitable thing in this country next to drugs and guns and porn. I think you are arguing that things are going to get worse. I don't see how they could. Why don't we stop arguing right or left wing and make some legislation that makes sense and actually cares for the people who need caring for? Is that really too much to ask? A bunch of rich guys arguing with a bunch of other rich guys about how to distribute wealth at the expense of sick people makes me sick. I hate that we are blaming President Obama. At least he's trying. It's way more than we can say for anyone else. He knew he wasn't going to be popular. Nobody who tries to effect change ever is. I hope he gets change because we have to try something else. What's happening now isn't working.

so much ownage :cool:
 

Amstel

The Hoarse Whisperer
Jul 12, 2009
28,172
12,439
473
you're a whore, but in a good way. Kindof.
I've read it.

And I'll count you as one of the ones that is caught up in the emotional value of the idea of global coverage while ignoring the logistical reality.

if this doesn't terrify the shit out of you, nothing will.
there will be limits set on how much a procedure should cost, how insurance companies will have less control over how much things cost, and how the government will intervene in this.

For the good of the people, the gov't decided to make mortgage interest deductible. Homeownership grew in this government created market. Don't worry that your grandma who's a Landlord business owner was held at bay.

For the good of the people, city governments take over homes claiming 'eminent domain.' Hey, you get a bigger airport out of the deal. Don't worry that grandma was moved right out of her house.

For the good of the people, the banks were written government checks and told to tighten up on lending. Don't worry that while the banks sat back and watched, your grandma lost money on the apartment expansion because suddenly the bank cut her off mid-construction.

You can sit around pining all you want about 'the system doesn't work.' I'm fine with that. But don't offer up the gov't as a solution. They fucking things up for a living in case you haven't noticed.
 

JAXvillain

Curly_Sue
Oct 13, 2004
68,202
1,642
923
lame. you got roasted and then you backpedaled to entirely different offtopic arguments in an attempt to save face
 

Amstel

The Hoarse Whisperer
Jul 12, 2009
28,172
12,439
473
you're a whore, but in a good way. Kindof.
fuck that. Roasted by a whiner? You wish. She's an emotional has been. Fucking kumbaya liberal. empty pockets and all. Let's all hug it out so I can get close enough to you to reach into your pockets. . . . Wreck the current system and cross your fingers hoping for something better. Yeah, that's a great plan all right. Economy much?

I'm just waiting for the 'can't we all just get along??? oh, and by the way, you need to pay for my _________. '

You can stand around patting each other on the back all fucking day, it doesn't change that it's a crap idea.
 

eileenbunny

Druish Princess
May 25, 2005
13,347
2,296
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45
Columbia, Maryland, United States
lame. you got roasted and then you backpedaled to entirely different offtopic arguments in an attempt to save face

Yup, the thing is, if I had more time and cared I could argue that argument too. There are a bunch of government programs that do work well and I think it would also be easy to argue that we do need government regulations on stuff. Also, I thought eminent domain was written into the constitution. I didn't think that had anything to do with democrats, government regulations, President Obama, or anything else we are talking about here. Whatever. Government is no worse than private industry where fucking things up is concerned. At least I have some say in what my government does. I have no say in what some rich douchebag's company does. I only get to choose whether or not to use their product. But when it comes to healthcare I haven't got a choice. If I want to live I have to deal with the rich douchebags. That sucks. I want the government to intervene on my behalf. I hate being a pawn of the rich douchebags and I hate making the rich douchebags richer because I happen to need chemotherapy or migraine medicine. I mean seriously, I take a medicine that costs $860 for 8 doses. If I didn't give tons of money to an insurance company I'd be screwed. The kicker is that this medicine doesn't need to cost that much, it's just that they can charge that much. You can argue that it probably cost money to invent and produce the medicine but it's an ergot derivative that's not even close to being a new idea. They just made it into nasal spray form and jacked up the price because they can. Fuckers. I hate them all. I hope they burn in hell for what they do to people. I guarantee I'm not the only one who has a story like this. These stories are a dime a dozen. That's about how much my medicine is worth. Pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies are terrible and they need regulations. They need someone to slap them silly for making medicine a benefit for the elite.
 
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Amstel

The Hoarse Whisperer
Jul 12, 2009
28,172
12,439
473
you're a whore, but in a good way. Kindof.
pft. keep trying. there's a huge difference between 'regulation' and 'takeover.' I don't expect you to comment on topic, just wanted to point that out.

we just need to get some space between sham and anderson cooper so he can breathe a little.
 
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eileenbunny

Druish Princess
May 25, 2005
13,347
2,296
573
45
Columbia, Maryland, United States
fuck that. Roasted by a whiner? You wish. She's an emotional has been. Fucking kumbaya liberal. empty pockets and all. Let's all hug it out so I can get close enough to you to reach into your pockets. . . . Wreck the current system and cross your fingers hoping for something better. Yeah, that's a great plan all right. Economy much?

I'm just waiting for the 'can't we all just get along??? oh, and by the way, you need to pay for my _________. '

You can stand around patting each other on the back all fucking day, it doesn't change that it's a crap idea.

And don't pretend you know me. You don't even come close to sizing me up.
 

JAXvillain

Curly_Sue
Oct 13, 2004
68,202
1,642
923
pft. keep trying. there's a huge difference between 'regulation' and 'takeover.' I don't expect you to comment on topic, just wanted to point that out.

we just need to get some space between sham and anderson cooper so he can breathe a little.

personal insults, eh? yeah, you got roasted and are now butthurt :lol:
 

Amstel

The Hoarse Whisperer
Jul 12, 2009
28,172
12,439
473
you're a whore, but in a good way. Kindof.
In poker it's called being an asshole. Anywhere it's called being an asshole. I argue points, you take personal jabs. Whatev. I can take it because my sense of self worth doesn't depend on someone I don't know on the internet. :)

No. Blanket whiney statements are not 'points.' They're attempts at distracting from 'points' to pull emotional heartstrings. You've offered nothing but a comment on obama that 'at least he's trying.' As a side note, wrecking the system and claiming progress while handing someone an asprin at a later date isn't an accomplishment. You need to set your bar a little higher and come to grips that your government is the least effective at being your nanny.
 
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eileenbunny

Druish Princess
May 25, 2005
13,347
2,296
573
45
Columbia, Maryland, United States
No. Blanket whiney statements are not 'points.' They're attempts at distracting from 'points' to pull emotional heartstrings. You've offered nothing but a comment on obama that 'at least he's trying.' As a side note, wrecking the system and claiming progress while handing someone an asprin at a later date isn't an accomplishment. You need to set your bar a little higher and come to grips that your government is the least effective at being your nanny.

Usually a medical directive is drawn up with a patient and a doctor and a notary public. There's usually not a lawyer involved. No need. Go to a doctor you trust, draw up the directive while you are healthy. The whole profit thing is no different. Doctors already push for the care that gets them the most money. New medical program or no, this is the way medical care in this country is.



To date I am the only person I know who has read the entire health care bill as it was passed and I don't remember reading this anywhere. I remember reading how there will be limits set on how much a procedure should cost, how insurance companies will have less control over how much things cost, and how the government will intervene in this. I remember reading how taking a proactive approach toward discussing all options of treatment for severe illness should be promoted. I don't remember anything about death panels. Rationing already happens. It's those who can afford health care that get it now and unfortunately it's really friggin expensive. Everyone else has to pray that someone will help them. I know this for a fact. I've been that guy. Death panels right now are insurance companies who have made the medical industry the most profitable thing in this country next to drugs and guns and porn. I think you are arguing that things are going to get worse. I don't see how they could. Why don't we stop arguing right or left wing and make some legislation that makes sense and actually cares for the people who need caring for? Is that really too much to ask? A bunch of rich guys arguing with a bunch of other rich guys about how to distribute wealth at the expense of sick people makes me sick. I hate that we are blaming President Obama. At least he's trying. It's way more than we can say for anyone else. He knew he wasn't going to be popular. Nobody who tries to effect change ever is. I hope he gets change because we have to try something else. What's happening now isn't working.


I have taken the time to highlight and bold the parts of my argument that were whiny or personal or meant to pull emotional heartstrings. I don't know what's wrong with being emotional about something that effects you. When did that become a bad thing? I did say that in my opinion the system can't get any more wrecked. My bar is pretty high. It includes affordable medical care for everyone.