Things like carnivore and echelon have been around for over a decade. That's just what we've been told. The truth is certainly far scarier.
Halp Do you think Edward Snowden did something good or bad overall?
- Thread starter fly
- Start date
Things like carnivore and echelon have been around for over a decade. That's just what we've been told. The truth is certainly far scarier.
A) Thats from 2008
B) Read the first line of the article
They werent in the united states. We were actively at war in the middle east, of course we're going to be conducting wartime intelligence and intercepts in the country we're at war in.
I'm amazed people still believe that the most technologically advanced and bloatedly expensive collection of government and military agencies on earth doesn't surveil its own citizens, even during the most paranoid era in its history. I suppose McCarthyism didn't happen either.
The one saving grace is that they are apparently saving EVERYTHING. That's just as useless as saving nothing.
The problem is that there's no oversight on those agencies to ensure they're actually obtaining those warrants. More importantly, the American public isn't allowed to know if they're being spied on and thus have no legal recourse if the 4th amendment is violated. It's not so much that they're doing it or even that they may be doing it wrong...it's that if they're doing it wrong we have absolutely no way of holding them accountable for that.
I have very little doubt that the vast majority of these actions were conducted solely against legitimate targets of interest. But I also have very little doubt that it's been used unjustly against our own citizens and citizens of our allies. I don't fear massive abuses of this power because resources are stretched thin enough that they have to remain focused but on principle they shouldn't have this power at all. This is an inexcusable overreach.
Last edited:
Valve1138
I like the AB in the GB
Have you not been watching/reading the news? Take your pick... Here was the first link of my Google search
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-records-verizon-court-order
I worked for the US Attorney's Office back in the day, and it was basically just a room full of black women who got paid to say "Ooh girl" all day. It's not racist if it's true. I have a pretty good idea of what the building full of contractors would look like that was hired to sort through this mess. I'm not too worried.
I cant comment officially on anything, you know that, but no matter if you're a full bird or some ensign, you snoop on someone who would require FISA without FISA and you are immediately getting your clearance revoked and getting fired, and quite likely going to jail. Its taken very very seriously.
While it's amusing to think that the data is being sifted through manually - and if it was I would give the guy looking at my history the ride of his life...motherless, here I come - in reality the bulk of it would be processed automatically to the point that by the time a human being is looking at the data there's a ridiculously high probability that the target in question is a serious threat. I'm not saying that to justify the program - I still think it's a reacharound of power - but the type of people you're describing would not be involved in any step of this process. Analysts at that level tend to fall toward a certain archetype.
Part of it is because focusing on an American citizen is difficult and not a high priority.
That is indeed the way it's supposed to work. But the problem is that we have no way of holding them accountable to that standard. Yes, it's taken very seriously but there are still cases of abuses that happen at the highest levels.
Last edited:
Per this
This is pure supposition, but as noted in the article, that type of broad scope is very very unusual. I would guess there were strong and serious indicators that something very very bad was about to go down, and a somewhat drastic measure was needed to try to prevent it.
If i had to guess, they have a known target somewhere (probably not in the US) who they suspect is working with elements within the US to do something very very unpleasant, and as they dont know who his compatriots are within the states, they need to see who calls his number.
That is a wildass guess.
The interesting part of this Verizon thing is that it has a time limit. Assuming there really are proper safeguards in place to prevent illegally spying on American citizens, there is likely a pretty big target or attack that may be about to happen.
Valve1138
I like the AB in the GB
no
If true, then Snowden probably did more harm than good. However, I think it's probably more likely that this kind of stuff actually does go on all them time. In the end, its really all about money and power.