Creepy Scientology vid feat. Tom Cruise

FlyNavy said:
well see there I disagree again

of course there should be criticism. there should ALWAYS be criticism of EVERYTHING. there is no subject, no issue, no idea, no belief, no philosophy that is above criticism. part of allowing people to believe as they wish is allowing others to believe that those people are complete retards. otherwise you're trying to eat your cake and have it, too; those who believe in magical sky men deserve no special consideration from those who believe said people are out of the gourds and vice versa
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i don't think "criticism" is the right word, if i'm assuming your meaning correctly. do you mean examination? there is nothing that is above being examined, sure. but criticized? i don't agree there.

i might think that your belief is crazy but i don't have to think that you are crazy for believing it.
 
FlyNavy said:
very true

however you don't learn more about the human mind by chanting and rehashing creation myths. the only way to do so is through science. anything less is not learning, merely mental masturbation
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but why can't you separate them? are you insisting that there is no spirituality? no layer that can't be real without science touching it? how boring. how disappointing. how bland. have at your science. it's thrilling and amazing...and immature. no matter how much we know, there's a bajillion things out there that science will discover that we have no way of knowing about yet.

but that doesn't mean that you can't have a world where science and spirituality can't exist together.
 
Thorn Bird said:
how can you assure me? because religions don't make "sense"? because there is lack of evidence that they do?
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That, and the fact that they defy everything we know about everything, up to and including everything. So yes, it is a very safe assumption that they are all fables. If we all accept the viewpoint that anything and everything is possible and acceptable, all intelligence and knowledge go flying out the window into the great cosmic shitter of silliness.

Thorn Bird said:
i often wonder if we are all correct. i don't see why that can't be a possibility.
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You don't see why religions which all essentially oppose and exclude one another can't all be correct? Seriously? If I tell you I believe that Chewbacca is one of a handful of gods I am telling you what is possibly the truth?
 
Thorn Bird said:
i don't think "criticism" is the right word, if i'm assuming your meaning correctly. do you mean examination? there is nothing that is above being examined, sure. but criticized? i don't agree there.

i might think that your belief is crazy but i don't have to think that you are crazy for believing it.
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you don't have to think it but you have the right to do so and you have the right to express that opinion as much as I have a right to hold my belief :o
 
FlyNavy said:
you don't have to think it but you have the right to do so and you have the right to express that opinion as much as I have a right to hold my belief :o
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I seriously wonder if sometimes you don't just argue for the sake of argument because the words that I read on the internet pretty much completely contradict the person I know in life.
 
Thorn Bird said:
but why can't you separate them? are you insisting that there is no spirituality? no layer that can't be real without science touching it? how boring. how disappointing. how bland. have at your science. it's thrilling and amazing...and immature. no matter how much we know, there's a bajillion things out there that science will discover that we have no way of knowing about yet.

but that doesn't mean that you can't have a world where science and spirituality can't exist together.
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I am separating them. Science and religion can coexist in the mind of a man but the latter can never influence the former despite the former routinely disproving the latter. Of course they're separated. Anything less devalues the scientific method.

I'm not insisting there's no spirituality, I'm insisting that I will not believe it in it unless it can be supported by evidence. And since the supernatural, by its very definition, is unsupportable by science then I'm never going to truly "believe" in it. I'll believe in the possibility but then again it's equally as likely that aliens are in control of my mind and making me think that there's something supernatural going on.

Science doesn't give a rat's ass if it's boring or bland or disappointing. It only cares about the truth. That's it. What we get out of it, however it makes us feel, is our own responsibility and our own concern. Just because we don't know something yet doesn't mean it can't be known through logical, rational means of exploration, observation and experimentation.

Science and spirituality can exist together in the world and they can exist together in one's mind. But science provides things spirituality is wholly incapable of and spirituality - to me - provides nothing that can't be gleaned from secular philosophy.

I think I failed to make a point with this post :lol: but the one you replied to still stands :p you can't learn about the natural world and share that knowledge by relying on the supernatural, on spiritual or religious ideas. that's not learning. we only know the things we know because people have taken steps to do so in a rational, logical manner and others demanded that they prove it with evidence.
 
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zengirl said:
I seriously wonder if sometimes you don't just argue for the sake of argument because the words that I read on the internet pretty much completely contradict the person I know in life.
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no I believe all this stuff no matter the situation, it's just not worth arguing over off the internet

nothing I've said here contradicts any genuine beliefs I hold, I just don't bother spouting them when people have to listen to me. at least here they can turn away and ignore me.
 
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FlyNavy said:
no I believe all this stuff no matter the situation, it's just not worth arguing over off the internet

nothing I've said here contradicts any genuine beliefs I hold, I just don't bother spouting them when people have to listen to me. at least here they can turn away and ignore me.
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B7

There, that fixes that.
 
Thorn Bird said:
but why can't you separate them? are you insisting that there is no spirituality? no layer that can't be real without science touching it? how boring. how disappointing. how bland. have at your science. it's thrilling and amazing...and immature. no matter how much we know, there's a bajillion things out there that science will discover that we have no way of knowing about yet.

but that doesn't mean that you can't have a world where science and spirituality can't exist together.
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As far as we know spirituality exists only within the minds of people. Period. Billions of people are and have been spiritual over the course of history. Billions, with a b. Some so fervently you would be convinced they dined with God himself on a daily basis. And yet here we are, thousands of years into the phenomenon, and still at exactly the same point we were when the very first person declared the very first spiritual thought. No progress has been made whatsoever in terms of analysis, evidence, or anything else. I find that puzzling, and am forced to conclude that it is the exact same thing as a small child telling you about how they used to be in college or some other amusing tale.

I'm not anti-spirituality. If I ever see a ghost with my own eyes for example I will completely reevaluate my entire life. I dream about the day that happens because I want there to be the possibility that I will know my own son for all time, somewhere, somehow. Certainly the existence of some kind of human spirit after mortal death would indicate that, right? It's horrifying to think that we might have only 40 years left together, and I ponder my morality every single day of my life.

So while I honestly hope you are right, I very seriously doubt it. All signs point to no so far.
 
Sarcasmo said:
That, and the fact that they defy everything we know about everything, up to and including everything. So yes, it is a very safe assumption that they are all fables. If we all accept the viewpoint that anything and everything is possible and acceptable, all intelligence and knowledge go flying out the window into the great cosmic shitter of silliness.

You don't see why religions which all essentially oppose and exclude one another can't all be correct? Seriously? If I tell you I believe that Chewbacca is one of a handful of gods I am telling you what is possibly the truth?
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you are still assuming. and that's your belief. but it's still not fact. i accept your belief.
and no, because religions are for man, made by man, and not proven, than i do completely think it's posssible that they might be all true. i really am coming around to the thought that maybe every single one of is is correct. i honestly don't think it will matter in the end because we will not be human anymore, no matter how we think it ends up. we will know when we are not human and thus have died. i think it's entirely possible that the end result may be what you think it is...for yourself.
FlyNavy said:
you don't have to think it but you have the right to do so and you have the right to express that opinion as much as I have a right to hold my belief :o
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EXACTLY. THIS IS WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY. MUAH!!


FlyNavy said:
I am separating them. Science and religion can coexist in the mind of a man but the latter can never influence the former despite the former routinely disproving the latter. Of course they're separated. Anything less devalues the scientific method.

I'm not insisting there's no spirituality, I'm insisting that I will not believe it in it unless it can be supported by evidence. And since the supernatural, by its very definition, is unsupportable by science then I'm never going to truly "believe" in it. I'll believe in the possibility but then again it's equally as likely that aliens are in control of my mind and making me think that there's something supernatural going on.

Science doesn't give a rat's ass if it's boring or bland or disappointing. It only cares about the truth. That's it. What we get out of it, however it makes us feel, is our own responsibility and our own concern. Just because we don't know something yet doesn't mean it can't be known through logical, rational means of exploration, observation and experimentation.

Science and spirituality can exist together in the world and they can exist together in one's mind. But science provides things spirituality is wholly incapable of and spirituality - to me - provides nothing that can't be gleaned from secular philosophy.

I think I failed to make a point with this post :lol: but the one you replied to still stands :p you can't learn about the natural world and share that knowledge by relying on the supernatural, on spiritual or religious ideas. that's not learning. we only know the things we know because people have taken steps to do so in a rational, logical manner and others demanded that they prove it with evidence.
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BOLD -- EXACTLY. and (insert whatever here) still may exist though we haven't gotten to it yet...or may exist despite the fact that we don't have the means to get there.
April25 said:
B7

There, that fixes that.
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and i've been on here for i don't know how long and i still don't know what this means. :( will you please enlighten me?
 
Thorn Bird said:
EXACTLY. THIS IS WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY. MUAH!!
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:boobies:
BOLD -- EXACTLY. and (insert whatever here) still may exist though we haven't gotten to it yet...or may exist despite the fact that we don't have the means to get there.
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Right. Consider this: things like god and spirituality defy logical exploration. We could come up with technology that can tells us for certain that there are no higher planes of existence, that it's all in our heads, yet the spiritual and faithful will claim that it's bullshit and say that their flavor of spirituality is so high it can't be examined by our means.

The reason that religious and spiritual ideas will never jive with science is not because they're unprovable, it's that they're unfalsifiable. Their very nature is to exist outside the realm of logical thought because no matter what we discover about our world supernatural ideas can always be taken a step higher and the claim that "god doesn't WANT us to know" will be made.

That does not mean it's not there. I have never and will never make that claim. But it will never be proven by means satisfactory to me so why waste the limited brain capacity I have with something that is neither real nor nets me any benefit?

As for others; again, they can believe whatever they want though I do think the most devout believers are severely holding back society. Just like the people that bitch about space exploration or stem cell research or alternative energy for whatever goddamn reason. They can have their beliefs but it's damned rude to force their beliefs on others by holding back the rest of society from advancing.
 
FlyNavy said:
As for others; again, they can believe whatever they want though I do think the most devout believers are severely holding back society. Just like the people that bitch about space exploration or stem cell research or alternative energy for whatever goddamn reason. They can have their beliefs but it's damned rude to force their beliefs on others by holding back the rest of society from advancing.
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now this is different to me. this is just like taking religion as an excuse to do harm to society. i have not thought about the devout and society before. i have no problems if ultimately it's bringing good to the masses (example: if the law that puts murderers away behind bars was brought about by a religious view, fine...it's for the greater good, and i don't care what religion it was.)

and i'm not suggesting that because you accept others' beliefs you have to accept their actions.
 
Thorn Bird said:
now this is different to me. this is just like taking religion as an excuse to do harm to society. i have not thought about the devout and society before. i have no problems if ultimately it's bringing good to the masses (example: if the law that puts murderers away behind bars was brought about by a religious view, fine...it's for the greater good, and i don't care what religion it was.)
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the law that puts murderers away was brought about by thousands of years of human history agreeing that murder is bad. the concept existed long before the ten commandments :p honestly I can't think of one thing beneficial to humanity that has come solely from religion

and i'm not suggesting that because you accept others' beliefs you have to accept their actions.
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oh I know :o

but I don't really have to accept their beliefs, either. might they be right? sure, but that goes for just about every wacky idea ever conjured up. who's to say we're not living in the Matrix right now? :hi2u:
 
Sarcasmo said:
I disagree with Thorn's point because I don't separate parts of an equation. I have to take the whole thing. I can't look at someone's 'benign' possession of faith and leave it at that. I look at what they have faith in, and why. Otherwise the whole thing is pointless. I don't blame people for wearing shoes, I blame them for wearing $200 shoes and insisting that the price tag is somehow justified.
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Sometimes having beautiful feet costs $200.00, or $2000.00. Choosing a faith or choosing what we spend our money on is one of the rights we have. Just because I like to spend money on shoes while you like to spend money on a shiny new computer that's faster than the speed of light doesn't make either of us bad. Religion is the same, just because I like the flying spaghetti monster and you like Xenu doesn't really make either of us bad or insane, we are just different. This freedom should only extend as far as our noses though. I shouldn't expect everyone to buy expensive shoes if they don't want to, but please don't make me buy that computer you've had your eye on. Isn't it wonderful that we aren't all the same?
 
eileenbunny said:
Sometimes having beautiful feet costs $200.00, or $2000.00. Choosing a faith or choosing what we spend our money on is one of the rights we have. Just because I like to spend money on shoes while you like to spend money on a shiny new computer that's faster than the speed of light doesn't make either of us bad. Religion is the same, just because I like the flying spaghetti monster and you like Xenu doesn't really make either of us bad or insane, we are just different. This freedom should only extend as far as our noses though. I shouldn't expect everyone to buy expensive shoes if they don't want to, but please don't make me buy that computer you've had your eye on. Isn't it wonderful that we aren't all the same?
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Adults who accept everything are foolish. Children live in the land of endless possibility, but as you age and develop wisdom and intelligence, you are supposed to move to the land of reality.

In other words if you DO believe in the flying spaghetti monster, then you are insane. Because there is no justification whatsoever to believe in it outside of the fact that you simply want to. Which puts you at the level of a child, and means you must be crazy.
 
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