Cat flips out bites owner 20 times

Sarcasmo said:
As Pandora just alluded to, have we figured out yet why it's logical to have to sanitize every square foot of earth in order to live without fear of teeth and claws?

Every animal has a need to propagate and spread, so I won't dwell too much on the "they were here first" argument, though there is an element of truth to that as well. My primary point is simply to ask why we must live so far outside of rational need.

We don't HAVE to eliminate all predators from state parks, though you want to just in case. There simply isn't that much of a threat. I can't count the number of state parks I've been to in my life, and I've never been threatened once. Bear encounters, a badger or two, even a wolverine. The moose that got all huffy was Norwegian and probably drunk, so it doesn't count.

I'm not discounting your opinions or your life accounts, nor am I discounting those of people you know. I'm simply saying that per capita there isn't a "problem" with predators, but merely a nuisance. And I don't think that extinction is a logical response to nuisance.

I absolutely choose to live in a land where there is a broad range of natural wonder to experience and enjoy, even if it means that some of it could kill me. And that's really the only point that need be considered. People WANT predators around, whether other people lose pets or livestock to them or not. I understand the financial stress predators cause. I think everyone does. I am able to empathize with the ranchers and farmers and their way of life, I truly am. I simply choose to ignore it. Why? Because I place more value on a species of creature that everyone should be able to observe and enjoy than I do on money.

And in all fairness to Wonko you HAVE changed your stance. Initially it was wipe out all predators everywhere, and lately it seems to be wipe out all predators in state parks. Which to me is also illogical, due to the ranges of the animals in question. Animals don't observe park boundaries. I'm not saying that to patronize you, I'm saying it for the sake of elaborating on a point. How do you keep predators out of the parks in question? You would have to eliminate vast numbers of them in surrounding territories too, which takes me back to my original point.

Why bother if they simply aren't that much of a threat? It is a well known fact that North American predators do not routinely stalk people. Will they on occasion? Yes, but as I've said before so will herbivores, which kill people daily across the globe. It's a matter of simple animal behavior.

But we, as logical cognitive creatures, are capable of realizing that the benefits of the species we share the world with far outweigh the hindrances. You are clearly biased towards the animals in question, and bias doesn't effectively play into objective, logical considerations.

Here's what I propose. Instead of telling us why they should be eliminated, tell us instead why they should be preserved. Examine the other side and do the research. If your response is that it isn't necessary because you know that they contribute nothing but unnecessary peril to everything around them, then you clearly haven't done the research. They are highly beneficial, I assure you. But don't take my word for it.
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Thank you for a well reasoned response. I enjoy replying to something well put and pleasantly delivered.

First of all, I haven't changed my stance (just because I emphasize one over the other). Predators were pretty well knocked back in this country when we were more agrarian. In my state the bear population sank to a couple dozen and, according to the DNR, remained stable into the 1950's. They proceeded to ban hunting. Now the bear population (I think) is over 500, all located in the western part of the state. There was a brief hunt last year but that netted less than 50. There are real issues there and the rural folk are all but up in arms.

The point here is that the ecology suffered nothing with virtually no bears.
So, why do we need bears? Other than some people figuring that the bears will kill off the deer and thus eliminate hunting, what possible reason are there for bears? I give you the same question for mountain lions and wolves. Just flat out, plainly tell me what the necessity is for either. I am a mountain person and have done a lot of reading and, for the life of me, I just don't see it. Appreciation and some nebulous concept of 'share the world' does not and never will translate to a necessity.

Remember, I posted about the elderly man being attacked by a mountain lion. The consensus from others in this forum was that the lion had every right and that the old fellow should have protected himself. If elderly people can't walk safely in state parks what good are the state parks. To me, taking the side of a mountain lion over a elderly man is a huge misplaced priority.

Anyhow, I have a ton of company work. Again I thank you for thoughtful post. I can pick this up later. I also realize that perhaps this wasn't my most reasoned response, but I wanted to return your post in like kind.
 
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To answer the mountain lion issue. SHIT HAPPENS. What the hell do you think we should do to prevent one little mishap.

Who cares, he was old and going to die anyways.
 
Sarcasmo said:
I know. A lot of the people in the Section 8 nearby are women on the run from abusive relationships. There is a special program set up specifically to shelter and aid them. I'm all for that. Just not the losers.
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I guess I kinda take offense when people say things that make others look at assisted housing as the scum of the Earth. Just 2 years ago I was for lack of a better word, homeless. I moved in with my best friend and when we went to renew the lease they didnt let us(without a HUGE increase). I could not stay with my parents until I found a place because of my dad and how we are together. I could not afford last/first and deposit on a new rental since this was so quickly thrown at me. Basically I was homeless with no where to go, it really sucked but it was from circumstances that were out of my control. Luckily my boss had a spare bed while his room mate was out of town, then he just never came back :fly: . Long story short, I have been there and without the very small shot of luck I would be the only homeless guy with a mercedes :D
 
Dysfunctional said:
Thank you for a well reasoned response. I enjoy replying to something well put and pleasantly delivered.

First of all, I haven't changed my stance (just because I emphasize one over the other). Predators were pretty well knocked back in this country when we were more agrarian. In my state the bear population sank to a couple dozen and, according to the DNR, remained stable into the 1950's. They proceeded to ban hunting. Now the bear population (I think) is over 500, all located in the western part of the state. There was a brief hunt last year but that netted less than 50. There are real issues there and the rural folk are all but up in arms.

The point here is that the ecology suffered nothing with virtually no bears.
So, why do we need bears? Other than some people figuring that the bears will kill off the deer and thus eliminate hunting, what possible reason are there for bears? I give you the same question for mountain lions and wolves. Just flat out, plainly tell me what the necessity is for either. I am a mountain person and have done a lot of reading and, for the life of me, I just don't see it. Appreciation and some nebulous concept of 'share the world' does not and never will translate to a necessity.

Remember, I posted about the elderly man being attacked by a mountain lion. The consensus from others in this forum was that the lion had every right and that the old fellow should have protected himself. If elderly people can't walk safely in state parks what good are the state parks. To me, taking the side of a mountain lion over a elderly man is a huge misplaced priority.

Anyhow, I have a ton of company work. Again I thank you for thoughtful post. I can pick this up later. I also realize that perhaps this wasn't my most reasoned response, but I wanted to return your post in like kind.
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Understood. I certainly don't take the side of an animal that attacks a person, per se. I just don't "blame" the animal for displaying an animalistic behavior. If, however, I were personally in that situation or if I observed that situation, I would do everything I could to kill that animal and save that person's life because I value people more than animals. But I also place high value on animals, because I enjoy them. So while I would kill that particular animal in that situation I wouldn't proceed to kill othes as well. I guess I'm saying that I'm reactive, not proactive, with regard to that scenario.
 
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BeerAd said:
I guess I kinda take offense when people say things that make others look at assisted housing as the scum of the Earth. Just 2 years ago I was for lack of a better word, homeless. I moved in with my best friend and when we went to renew the lease they didnt let us(without a HUGE increase). I could not stay with my parents until I found a place because of my dad and how we are together. I could not afford last/first and deposit on a new rental since this was so quickly thrown at me. Basically I was homeless with no where to go, it really sucked but it was from circumstances that were out of my control. Luckily my boss had a spare bed while his room mate was out of town, then he just never came back :fly: . Long story short, I have been there and without the very small shot of luck I would be the only homeless guy with a mercedes :D
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I don't really view poor people negatively. Honest.
 
April23 said:
To answer the mountain lion issue. SHIT HAPPENS. What the hell do you think we should do to prevent one little mishap.

Who cares, he was old and going to die anyways.
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Good point, survival of the fittest even though I know that it will be turned right back around to "well we are the fittest so kill all big animals"
 
BeerAd said:
I guess I kinda take offense when people say things that make others look at assisted housing as the scum of the Earth. Just 2 years ago I was for lack of a better word, homeless. I moved in with my best friend and when we went to renew the lease they didnt let us(without a HUGE increase). I could not stay with my parents until I found a place because of my dad and how we are together. I could not afford last/first and deposit on a new rental since this was so quickly thrown at me. Basically I was homeless with no where to go, it really sucked but it was from circumstances that were out of my control. Luckily my boss had a spare bed while his room mate was out of town, then he just never came back :fly: . Long story short, I have been there and without the very small shot of luck I would be the only homeless guy with a mercedes :D
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A Mercedes you need to get rid of and get a reliable car instead!
 
BeerAd said:
Good point, survival of the fittest even though I know that it will be turned right back around to "well we are the fittest so kill all big animals"
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Nothing is black and white, including the point you just raised. Do you support eugenics, for example? Do you support the processing and extraction of beneficial nutrients from old and lame people?

Within reason I fully support the destruction of animals that attack people. I also, however, support educational initiatives that explain to stupid people what could happen when you move into a predator's habitat. And I don't mean part of its habitat, but usually all of it. The days of small, clustered settlements is over. We are well into the age of the sprawl. Which, logically, is both good and bad for everyone and everything. And people need to understand that.

And honestly, we're past the point of no return. The population will only expand, and real estate will only achieve higher premiums. The problems is just going to get worse.

Eventually, sadly, people will win and something many people love dearly will vanish forever.
 
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Sarcasmo said:
Nothing is black and white, including the point you just raised. Do you support eugenics, for example? Do you support the processing and extraction of beneficial nutrients from old and lame people?

Within reason I fully support the destruction of animals that attack people. I also, however, support educational initiatives that explain to stupid people what could happen when you move into a predator's habitat. And I don't mean part of its habitat, but usually all of it. The days of small, clustered settlements is over. We are well into the age of the sprawl. Which, logically, is both good and bad for everyone and everything. And people need to understand that.

And honestly, we're past the point of no return. The population will only expand, and real estate will only achieve higher premiums. The problems is just going to get worse.

Eventually, sadly, people will win and something many people love dearly will vanish forever.
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Very Very well put, best read in this entire thread so far IMO
 
ChikkenNoodul said:
I always have a nice little chuckle to myself when someone gets eaten by an animal.

Particularly that grizzly bear "expert" a while back
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That guy HAD to have known that was the fate destiny had in store for him. Extended periods of time spent within direct reach of massive carnivores...

I guess in a beautifully profound way he has become what he loved though.

:fly:
 
ChikkenNoodul said:
I always have a nice little chuckle to myself when someone gets eaten by an animal.

Particularly that grizzly bear "expert" a while back
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Timothy Treadwell: I've always wished I was gay, it would have been a lot easier. You know, it's just Bing! Bing! Bing! - gay guys, no problem. They go to restrooms and truck stops and perform sex, it's like so easy for them and stuff.
 
ChikkenNoodul said:
I always have a nice little chuckle to myself when someone gets eaten by an animal.

Particularly that grizzly bear "expert" a while back
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Well he wasn't much of an expert was he? I mean anyone who tries to live with animals like they're people is doomed to a grizzly death. That's just Darwinism.
 
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