Ontopic A Thread About Butt Mustard, For Those Who Drive Automobiles

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@Jehannum @gee

My AutoMeter gauges came with a temp sender for the coolant. I don't necessarily want to drain the system right now to install the sender, using the stock sender should just throw off the temp shown on the gauge slightly, right? Considering it gets power from a fused 12V, it shouldn't do anything else? Not really concerned with damage, as I can't think of any way it might actually damage it.
 
God, old people are just so old.

The newest thing amongst the antique outboard people is to dunk their brass parts in ketchup, or (for some god forsaken reason) use diluted muriatic acid to clean their brass. Every fucking time it comes up I tell them about bronze disease, what causes it, why it's a bad idea, and how to clean shit correctly to preserve their antique stuff. Every Fucking Time that I do I get pushback from some old dude complaining that "well from the factory there was a salt water option that used brass stuff instead of aluminum, why did they do that Mr Fancy Pants?" or some other inane ass comment.

It's like they don't want to listen to shit designed to preserve their purchases
 
God, old people are just so old.

The newest thing amongst the antique outboard people is to dunk their brass parts in ketchup, or (for some god forsaken reason) use diluted muriatic acid to clean their brass. Every fucking time it comes up I tell them about bronze disease, what causes it, why it's a bad idea, and how to clean shit correctly to preserve their antique stuff. Every Fucking Time that I do I get pushback from some old dude complaining that "well from the factory there was a salt water option that used brass stuff instead of aluminum, why did they do that Mr Fancy Pants?" or some other inane ass comment.

It's like they don't want to listen to shit designed to preserve their purchases
Oldsters gonna old man.

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Ketchup, though? :D
Chemistry, man. Shits fun if you have a head for it (I barely do.)

Basically the acids in ketchup strip the top layer of dull brass off (literally eating it away.). Unfortunately ketchup contains chloride in the form of salt (NaCl)
The chloride atoms like the copper in brass (and bronze) more than anything else and diffuse into the metal to form cuprous chloride (CuCl) a sort of green fuzzy growth on the surface. This leads to all sorts of issues and there is no easy way to get the chloride out of the brass.

CuCl is funny because for the longest time people thought it was a bacteria living on the copper, however copper is a biocide meaning no bugs or bacteria can live on it. Despite not being a bacteria it is still "infectious" as the chloride can traverse to other copper items and oh my god I have turned into my father.
 
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"well from the factory there was a salt water option that used brass stuff instead of aluminum, why did they do that Mr Fancy Pants?"
uh, 'cause copper/brass passivates itself in seawater, turns ugly as shit but it stays there. Aluminum disappears.

If they're just washing something with ketchup and a toothbrush, it's not gonna sit long enough for the chlorine to diffuse into the metal. But if you're soaking it in ketchup for a week, that's gonna fuck it up. Use vinegar instead.

- someone who designs underwater shit.
 
uh, 'cause copper/brass passivates itself in seawater, turns ugly as shit but it stays there. Aluminum disappears.

If they're just washing something with ketchup and a toothbrush, it's not gonna sit long enough for the chlorine to diffuse into the metal. But if you're soaking it in ketchup for a week, that's gonna fuck it up. Use vinegar instead.

- someone who designs underwater shit.
They're letting that shit in there for several days at least.
 
Chemistry, man. Shits fun if you have a head for it (I barely do.)

Basically the acids in ketchup strip the top layer of dull brass off (literally eating it away.). Unfortunately ketchup contains chloride in the form of salt (NaCl)
The chloride atoms like the copper in brass (and bronze) more than anything else and diffuse into the metal to form cuprous chloride (CuCl) a sort of green fuzzy growth on the surface. This leads to all sorts of issues and there is no easy way to get the chloride out of the brass.

CuCl is funny because for the longest time people thought it was a bacteria living on the copper, however copper is a biocide meaning no bugs or bacteria can live on it. Despite not being a bacteria it is still "infectious" as the chloride can traverse to other copper items and oh my god I have turned into my father.
Acetic acid (dissolved in water to make vinegar (which is in ketchup)) and copper form a passivated, crystalline surface which is relatively stable (compared to the copper chloride, very low solubility in water) but yeah the salt in ketchup is gonna fuck it right up. Patina can be a good thing if maintained which entails cleaning and removing metal slowly over time. Things realistically will not last forever.

IDK about protecting brass otherwise, but there is a nugget of truth under the mountain of dumb.

Vinegar and mechanical cleaning would probably be a good method for treating the disease: lots of water to solvate and flush the chloride then a soak to establish passivation. (possibly multiple cycles) Zinc acetate is more soluble than copper acetate, so you would hope that the brass has a high enough copper content that there could be an unbroken surface of copper acetate, and thus minimized possibility of "holes" to raw copper being exposed. Passivation layers are not mechanically robust at the interface, just better, wear is a part of life.

#salts
#chemistry

I see @gee has experience, but this is the process by which it happens.

All that being said brass is pretty resilient in saltwater, as evidenced by shipwreck recoveries after many years.
 
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Acetic acid (dissolved in water to make vinegar (which is in ketchup)) and copper form a passivated, crystalline surface which is relatively stable (compared to the copper chloride, very low solubility in water) but yeah the salt in ketchup is gonna fuck it right up. Patina can be a good thing if maintained which entails cleaning and removing metal slowly over time. Things realistically will not last forever.

IDK about protecting brass otherwise, but there is a nugget of truth under the mountain of dumb.

Vinegar and mechanical cleaning would probably be a good method for treating the disease: lots of water to solvate and flush the chloride then a soak to establish passivation. (possibly multiple cycles) Zinc acetate is more soluble than copper acetate, so you would hope that the brass has a high enough copper content that there could be an unbroken surface of copper acetate, and thus minimized possibility of "holes" to raw copper being exposed. Passivation layers are not mechanically robust at the interface, just better, wear is a part of life.

#salts
#chemistry

I see @gee has experience, but this is the process by which it happens.

All that being said brass is pretty resilient in saltwater, as evidenced by shipwreck recoveries after many years.
Tl;dr: ideally vinegar protects brass, in reality maintenance is key and wear is inevitable.
 
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