A serious question

taeric said:
It sounds like tree hugging bullsh*t. I'll gladly admit that. Never claimed otherwise, actually.

However, I don't have to have a sense of superiority that my view on life is somehow better than others. I am fully aware that it is just different. And since I come dangerously close to not believing in a god, I'm fine with the thought that happiness, from the self or otherwise, is completely f*cking made up.


so we both live life tree-huggingly...:fly:

how you choose to live your life is completely up to you, i would never dare to assume that mine is superior. some of the choices other people make just do not make sense to me. and god knows (<- HAHA) that many of my choices would probably make no sense to most people. for the most part i try to understand why some people choose certain things whether i agree with them or not.

now the belief in god and happiness is an interesting turn. why did you bring it up? if you are agnostic leaning towards atheist then i don't understand your last comment. contentness, perhaps happiness to some degree, is a physiological and psychological reaction to your surroundings. i suppose i should ask how you distinguish happy and content.
 
taeric said:
I would disagree, happiness is no more self inflicted than the feeling of being hot or cold. It is simply a side effect of personal reflections and outside influences. To claim otherwise is to ignore the feeling of elation one has during such trivial tasks as having sex. (Or winning a game, or any number of other examples)

Ooooooh, someone that likes to rebut point by point. I find myself liking you more and more. Based on your arguments so far, how can you explain S&M fetishists? How do people derive happiness from extremely negative external stimulus like Pain, deprivation, humiliation? If happiness is a side effect of personal reflections on external stimuli, how can you say you have no control over it? What happens when there is no stimulus strong enough for us to interpret it as happiness, are we forever doomed to search for that next big fix? Are we never able to modify or adjust our perceptions of the events in our life to find happiness?

A good example is a girl I that I went to school with once upon a time. She was diagnosed with Cancer at a very young age, by the time I met her she had already lost one of her arms and was still in therapy to keep her system in remission. Now, based on your view of happiness (as determined solely by external stimuli) this girl should have been the most miserable person on the face of the planet, right? But she wasn't. I learned so many lessons about happiness by just being around her. Take pleasure in the small things, look for the positive in any situation, be stronger than the situations life throws at you because it's not going to stop raining crap on you until you die.


But that is just it, we do not have the ability to govern our own happiness, merely to influence it. Unless, of course, one is willing to take happy pills and give in to the chemical demands of the body.

I can see how you would think that drugs are an ultimate solution, based on your views of happiness so far. But let me ask you this, what are these drugs other than chemical simulations of the exact stimuli that you are basing happiness on right now? The endorphins released during orgasm, the adrenaline released during competition and victory? The human organism is firmly rooted in animal behavior, and we are rewarded for completing goals that forward our survival. Look at our pleasure centers and you'll see what evolution has done to us. Sex feels good because it propogates the species. Pooping feels good because if we didn't do it we'd die. Victory feels good because it secures our place at the head of the pack, giving us breeding and feeding opportunities. The problem is that as an organism we have evolved beyond reacting to stimuli, positive or negative. With the ability to reason comes the ability to shape the stimuli we receive every day into whatever form we choose, happiness or misery.



If you think that merely turning your back on your friends is a way to find happiness, than the more power to you. In a way, this wouldn't surprise me as it is common in most religions and practices, but I will gladly reject it as a selfish view on how to please one's self.

Helping your friends is one thing. Helping your friends perpetuate their own misery is quite different. Your guy friend isn't going to be happy until he can cut this girl loose, learn his lesson and move on. Your girl friend isn't going to be happy until the whole thing is over and behind her. Understanding that they are both responsible for the position that they are in frees you from being involved unless you choose to be. You mention being selfish, when my suggestions have their basis in altruism. By letting these two fall miserably apart you allow them to take some hard earned lessons away from this whole thing. Your guy friend learns to be more up front with his feelings, your girl friend learns the same. By coddling either one of them you are encouraging the return of this behavior in the future. Sure it'll make your guy friend feel better to hear that he didn't do anything wrong, but in reality he did quite a bit wrong and he needs to come to grips with that. He won't be able to do that with someone holding his hand the entire way.



You've clearly never helped out a person in need. Or a child that has been abandoned. Or a friend that just needed a little help. Happiness is a gift that you can give yourself, true, but it is also a gift you can help others find.

There are some pretty ambitious assumptions here, I don't take offense to them, you simply don't know me well enough to see how wrong those statements are. I will point out one thing wrong in this quoted block. You will never, ever be able to help someone else be happy. You can provide external stimulus that triggers their pleasure centers. You can make their lives easier, better, more rewarding. You can do all of those things but you will never be able to make someone understand that they have the power to make themselves happy.

My proof? This thread. If I were able to make you understand that you will only ever be as happy as you choose to be you wouldn't still be arguing with me... :D
 
reverendsaintjay said:
The funny thing is that most of us are fine with this idea. In fact, the whole concept of happiness being a self inflicted idea is something I embrace wholeheartedly.

The question becomes this, if we have the ability to govern our own happiness, why would you ever choose depression/angst/misery/etc?

The most liberating thing about realizing that your happiness is your own creation... Realizing that means that other people's happiness is their own responsibility.



that's pretty much what i don't understand. why choose misery when you already realize you don't have to?
 
reverendsaintjay said:
Ooooooh, someone that likes to rebut point by point. I find myself liking you more and more.

Meh, it was a slow morning. I won't be so long on this post, unfortunately. And trust me, I'm not worth liking. :iono:

reverendsaintjay said:
Based on your arguments so far, how can you explain S&M fetishists? How do people derive happiness from extremely negative external stimulus like Pain, deprivation, humiliation? If happiness is a side effect of personal reflections on external stimuli, how can you say you have no control over it? What happens when there is no stimulus strong enough for us to interpret it as happiness, are we forever doomed to search for that next big fix? Are we never able to modify or adjust our perceptions of the events in our life to find happiness?

I didn't say you have no control over it. Simply that you don't have complete control over it. I will gladly go along with the idea that people cause themselves to be stuck in misery. Why else would people get so worked up over traffic.

A similar argument I had with a friend once was how pissed off traffic had made him. I pointed out that it wasn't traffic that had pissed him off, but his own emotions. He disagreed pointing out all the ways trafficed had pissed him off. I simply had to point out that I was not pissed, and I had gone through the same traffic. (In fact, I believe I may have been the one driving.)


reverendsaintjay said:
snip person you knew

Again, this comes from my being too strong in pointing out the influence of external things. To deny that there is external influence on your happiness is a weak argument, is what I was really getting at. To claim that happiness is solely outside of us would be an even weaker argument, which is what you seem to have thought I was doing. I wasn't.


reverendsaintjay said:
I can see how you would think that drugs are an ultimate solution, based on your views of happiness so far. But let me ask you this, what are these drugs other than chemical simulations of the exact stimuli that you are basing happiness on right now? The endorphins released during orgasm, the adrenaline released during competition and victory? The human organism is firmly rooted in animal behavior, and we are rewarded for completing goals that forward our survival. Look at our pleasure centers and you'll see what evolution has done to us. Sex feels good because it propogates the species. Pooping feels good because if we didn't do it we'd die. Victory feels good because it secures our place at the head of the pack, giving us breeding and feeding opportunities. The problem is that as an organism we have evolved beyond reacting to stimuli, positive or negative. With the ability to reason comes the ability to shape the stimuli we receive every day into whatever form we choose, happiness or misery.

Have we really evolved past that? A lot of us are fortunate enough in that we think (and can even act like) we have, but I'm not so sure about the reality of the statement.


reverendsaintjay said:
thing about my friends

My friends interest me far less than this argument does.... I can discuss them some more if you want, but that really would be a tanget to the fun stuff happening in here. Basically, the main worrying I was actually doing about them was about the girl taking a liking to me. Reflecting on that some more, I don't think she has particularly done so, but I think she does want my help getting out and being social to meet people. In particular, people to date.

reverendsaintjay said:
There are some pretty ambitious assumptions here, I don't take offense to them, you simply don't know me well enough to see how wrong those statements are.

See... those were supposed to be sarcastic. I sometimes forget that doesn't come through online.

reverendsaintjay said:
I will point out one thing wrong in this quoted block. You will never, ever be able to help someone else be happy. You can provide external stimulus that triggers their pleasure centers. You can make their lives easier, better, more rewarding. You can do all of those things but you will never be able to make someone understand that they have the power to make themselves happy.

But that is exactly what I was getting at. You can not make them be happy (without the use of very lethal drugs that target the brain specifically), but you can definitely deny people happiness by certain stimulations. By the same token, you can give people the opportunity for happiness, as well.

reverendsaintjay said:
My proof? This thread. If I were able to make you understand that you will only ever be as happy as you choose to be you wouldn't still be arguing with me... :D

Actually... that would be pretty poor proof. I'm in this thread because it pleases me to have fun and involved conversations with people. I'm arguing for the joy of arguing here.

Also, I should point this out. I have found that it is easiest for me to learn about certain viewpoints by challenging them. So, when I see a view that is similar to my own online, I will often attack it. By learning how other people defend it and why, I can often come to a better understanding of my own reasons for doing so. :) All of this is to say, please don't get offended, as it is not intended. Do, however, defend your position as well as you can. Please.
 
Gah!!! There is no way in hell I will be able to keep up with this thread.

So... if I miss a question, just ask again.

thrawn said:
now the belief in god and happiness is an interesting turn. why did you bring it up? if you are agnostic leaning towards atheist then i don't understand your last comment. contentness, perhaps happiness to some degree, is a physiological and psychological reaction to your surroundings. i suppose i should ask how you distinguish happy and content.


I wouldn't say I'm leaning towards atheism, per se. I do agree greatly with Taoism, but I also don't know it as well as I'd like.

To directly answer your question, though. I see happy as more of an immediate feeling. Content I see as more of an acceptance of things (or decisions) past. To be more clear, I can easily be content with something I am not happy with. I may not be happy with how my last program turned out, but I can easily be content to leave it alone as it doesn't need to be changed. Make sense?
 
taeric said:
Also, I should point this out. I have found that it is easiest for me to learn about certain viewpoints by challenging them. So, when I see a view that is similar to my own online, I will often attack it. By learning how other people defend it and why, I can often come to a better understanding of my own reasons for doing so. :) All of this is to say, please don't get offended, as it is not intended. Do, however, defend your position as well as you can. Please.

It's depressing that so many people on the planet have forgotten that arguing for the sake of argument can be a wholly satisfying experience. Thank you for being game, and don't worry about the sarcasm thing, I have long since learned to read posts/emails/etc. without inflicting emotional bent on them.

Sorry for the short post, I'm off to get some grub, I'll be back with more debate after the break.