Originally Posted by
Amstel
the issue is that they want to be included in the civil term Marriage where, for the past 1000's of years the term has always meant a man & a woman, the purpose of which was community growth through biological procreation, & raising families - one man - one woman. The term was never designed or used in a manner where people could create their own thing, decide they wanted to call it marriage too & expect everyone to just agree.
Um no.
The concept of marriage CAN be purposed as a man and a woman bound for community growth through biological procreation. Marriage can also be used symbolically by two people that have no thoughts or abilities to procreate at all.
You want rights, not symbolism so I'm not sure why you're going there. Marriage can also be used to bind two families together in power and land contracts.
In the US we call this incorporating. Gay people can do this unless you can show me they can't. Marriage can be a spiritual binding of two people, with or without the concept of family multiplication.
You're not on a spiritual quest or you'd be creating some kind of church.
Where you there in the invention of the word to determine the original design of it? The concept of it? Even the "clinical" civil version of it does not require blood tests or paternity exams to get a license. Two people can most certainly justify ANY reason to bind themselves together in civil matrimony.
Incorporating. Get with the program.
Originally Posted by
Amstel
It's like a boy saying he wants to be called a girl because it's sexist not to, and then having a parade about it. lolx.
Um, no it's not. That's transgenderism, something don't choose to have. A marriage is chosen to be involved with, either by the parties involved for even sometimes by families or other outside influences.
You know how you know you're gay? It's the drama. If a boy wants, for no other reason than he feels that he was born to, to be called a girl and claims sexism if you don't, it's the same thing.
Originally Posted by
Amstel
I think if they want to make any real accepted progress in the direction they want, they should petition the government (like adults) to change the term marriage to union. In doing so they would then "assign" the all benefits they want from legal union to whoever (individual) they want. They would completely circumvent Prop 8. You wouldn't have to even live together. It would be just be a legal arrangement. Then, the couple could have whatever 'marriage,' 'hookup,' 'chattel,' celebration - in whatever recognized or unrecognized ceremony they wanted to have outside the legal union paperwork. I got married in a church. At the end of the ceremony the wife, a witness, and I all had to sign a marriage cert & it had to be sent in for it to be 'legal.' I would have no problem if it was updated to a certificate of Union, cause really, I really don't give a shit what anyone else calls it - it doesn't change my marriage commitment.
Like Sarc said, if it's just a word, what's the issue keeping it?
So it's more than a word for you. Your 'movement' just got harder. Why do you want to make it harder? Also the power of the word is portability. This is the issue the Brits are having with their "Civil Partnership" title for two people bound in a clause. When Elton John came over to the US with his partner, technically he was coming here with a friend, not with his husband, not with anyone that has any automatic power of attorney or anything. Had something happened to Elton, Mr. Furnish might not have been able to visit him in the hospital because the US does not have a concept of "Civil Partnership". If, however, he went to Canada and they got a marriage license, then their marriage would be valid in those few states that recognize same-sex marriages (more than 6).
That is categorically the Worst.Analogy.Evar. If you go to a foreign country you abide by their rules. Not knowing this should revoke your ability to leave your house.
And, of course, changing the name is setting the precedent for a concept called "separate, but equal" and we all know how well that worked. Hell it didn't even work in front of a federal judge in Mass, stating "civil union" nomenclature is not good enough.
Originally Posted by
Amstel
It's almost like their position is to force their beliefs and labels on the rest of the world and they won't be happy unless the rest of the world agrees.
Um no.
We are forcing people to remember the Equal Protect Clause:
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
Since the construct of marriage has been defined by the federal courts repeatedly as a fundamental right (not just a privilege), it seems to me this right should extend to all citizens of the US.
Seems? Good luck with that in a courtroom.
Also, it's not a right.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/05/10/us/politics/20100505-kagan-opinions.html
Elena Kagan
“There is no federal constitutional right to same-sex marriage.”
Elena Kagan at her Solicitor general confirmation hearing, 2009
And it just isn't about marriage, either, although marriage is a big part of it. Even the ability to serve your country is questionable based on your perceived sexuality.
I think this is dumb too.
Originally Posted by
Amstel
It's not like they''ll ever be 100% happy. There's always going to be something.
Not happy? Have you been to gay pride events? Hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world collaborating and celebrating and we don't even have 100% equal rights (yet). Could you just imagine the party when we are federally accepted as 100% equal citizens?
You will never ever feel 100% accepted for the sole reason you label yourself as different. I have brown hair & you know what, I feel just as accepted as someone with blonde hair. You know why? I don't think me having brown hair makes me different.
Like I said earlier, when a gay rights organization has won their battle, they dismantle. When full rights are guaranteed to all legal citizens of this country for all rights and privileges therein, I can definitely see those equal rights groups like Get Equal and others dismantling.
Never.There's always a reason someone owes somebody something. As long as you can claim victimhood.